diversity

I'd recommend coordinating via Village Pump, possibly creating a Task force. And yes, it would be great if you brought it up at the upcoming meeting.

Eekim21:56, 12 May 2010

It looks to me that this point

So then your questions are:
How can we cause Wikipedia to be time-prioritized higher in general?
How can we cause Wikipedia to be time-prioritized higher in groups where we lack diversity?

is exactly the wrong one. It assumes that Wikimedia is the centre of the world and that it is entitled to valuable time of valuable people.

If a time-pressed person would decide to devote some valuable time to a Wikimedia project this person is very likely to find that this was a pure waste as the valuable content added fell prey to the normal Wikimedia processes and is gone or perverted quickly.

The whole approach sounds very much like Greece struggling with a budget deficit, crying out "give us more money, we need it badly!"

Why not focus on a strategy that aims at achieving the goals of the movement, rather than on trying to poor "good time after bad time". - Brya 06:28, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Brya06:28, 13 May 2010

"It assumes that Wikimedia is the centre of the world and that it is entitled to valuable time of valuable people."

I disagree. If we want more contributors, we have to make people want to contribute more than they want to do other things, since time is finite. Anytime someone does an activity that takes time, they've spent that time doing something that precludes them doing anything else with that time (i.e. you can only spend from 3pm to 4pm on May 12, 2009 watching television once). If we can get people to contribute to Wikipedia in place of the half hour they might have spent playing Sudoku or watching TV, that's a net gain all around, in my opinion.

The bottom line is, if we need more contributors, both the people and the time have to come from somewhere.

Noraft09:33, 13 May 2010

I would appreciate not to see "more contributors" vs. diversity and that is the reason why I like your way to ask your questions. As a longtime editor I know that there is always movement and fluctuation within each wikimedia project. That is a proper way avoid stagnation. And only trying to increase the number of contributors may ignore that different people bring in different thoughts and ideas, which in sum are important for every movement.

Lyzzy17:26, 13 May 2010
 

Exactly. If the purpose is to have more contributors, then it is logical to ensnare people by any means available ("we have to make people want to contribute more than they want to do other things, since time is finite.") However, that does indeed assume that "Wikimedia is the centre of the world and that it is entitled to valuable time of valuable people."

It all depends on what the purpose is:

  • more contributors
  • more diversity among contributors
  • more knowledge contained in Wikipedia (or other projects)
  • a higher proportion of knowledge in Wikipedia (etc)

The strategy to be chosen depends on the purpose. If all that is wanted is more contributors then it is obvious to seek those whose time is least valuable; they have it to spare. Aiming at those with valuable time just to crank up the numbers of 'contributors' is really desperate (and ruthless). - Brya 05:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Brya05:53, 14 May 2010

More diversity among contributors requires more contributors. We can't make the current contributors more diverse; they are as diverse as they are, and the Wikimedia movement has stated that they aren't diverse enough. If you want a greater percentage of any particular demographic to edit Wikipedia, those people must be recruited (hence, more contributors). And to recruit those people, you'll have to make them want to edit Wikipedia more than they want to do something else that currently occupies a part of the 24 hours in each of their days. So you still need to figure out how we can cause Wikipedia to be time-prioritized higher.

Think of it this way: Right now, somewhere, there is a person whose contributions to Wikipedia would enrich it because of her diversity. She does not currently edit Wikipedia, which means Wikipedia is of zero time-priority to her. The 24 hours in each of her days are taken up by activities she finds more important (which is ALL activities). If you want her to edit Wikipedia, you have to get her to time-prioritize Wikipedia higher than something--anything--in her day.

This is a simple case of time economics. Right now, Wikipedia is "over-represented" by under-30 Caucasian males. If you want a higher proportion of females, people over 30, people of various ethnicities, etc., there are only three ways to increase that proportion: get a bunch of the over-represented group(s) to leave, get a bunch of the under-represented groups to come, or some of both. As it isn't inclusive (nor within the goals of the Wikimedia movement) to ask people to leave because of their race, age, or gender, we're going to need to get more contributors in under-represented groups to sign up. But before they do that, they have to want to contribute more than they want to do something else.

Noraft16:00, 14 May 2010

QED. A lot of "have-to's" based on assumptions, in turn based on the central assumption "Wikimedia is the centre of the world and [...] entitled to valuable time of valuable people." It all sounds very desperate and very ruthless, indeed. - Brya 06:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Brya06:23, 15 May 2010

That's a very cynical way of looking at it. Yeah, there are valuable people who are not interested, but we're not going to kidnap them. I think we're talking about the valuable people who *are* interested, but they might be limited by the way Wikipedia is organized at present. If time is money, there's definitely a ton of people who would participate in Wikipedia if it were half the cost. That's just common sense.

Randomran14:55, 15 May 2010

It looks like realism to me. When I encounter those who focus on a desired outcome and then plan to deploy activity but ignore the actual problem I am saddened. A parallel case is the bad reputation of Wikipedia in academic circles; there are those who want to organize a PR-campaign to polish up the image, while in reality the quality of Wikipedia is very uneven, with articles ranging from very good to pretty horrible. It is possible to spend any amount of time, money and effort in activities that will not help the actual situation, or even make it worse. - Brya 06:04, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Brya06:04, 16 May 2010

I know you probably thought you were making an analogy, but it really just seemed like you were changing the subject. There's nothing unrealistic that lowering the cost (in time) of something will cause more people to buy it (volunteer their time).

Randomran06:28, 16 May 2010

Talking about changing the topic! There are only a few cases where "lowering the cost (in time) of something will cause more people to buy it (volunteer their time)." will apply, as in "working with LiquidThreads costs 4× as long as the regular way, so I will only rarely bother". In most other cases the analogy is pointless.

Of course there is a real cost (in money) in contributing anything at an encyclopedic level, but there is not much that would reduce that cost. It might be possible to prevent the increase of cost added by the community. - Brya 05:36, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Brya05:36, 17 May 2010

There's a lot we can do to reduce the cost of contributing. Basically, anything that makes it easier or faster, and anything that reduces wasted effort.

Randomran06:20, 17 May 2010

Well, a lot depends on what is meant by "contribute". The costs of contributing content at an encyclopedic level cannot be much influenced by anything done within Wikipedia. But, yes, the cost in time for a user working off a list of tasks-to-do, or of things-missing can probably be reduced. However, it is not unlikely that this will add to the real costs for those who belong to the first group. - Brya 05:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Brya05:20, 18 May 2010

Making editing easier should lower the cost for everyone, really. You can't find anyone who really thinks that citation templates are the best way to handle research.

Randomran14:56, 18 May 2010

Well, if that is what you believe ... - Brya 06:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Brya06:53, 19 May 2010
 
 
 
 
 

Deploy activity? I've just asked a question: How are you going to get that native Hawaiian who is playing World of Warcraft to decide they'll play for 30 minutes less today, and contribute to Wikipedia? I challenge you to actually answer that question rather than deploring it. Or are you saying that right now, we don't need any more contributors (diverse or otherwise)?

Noraft06:53, 16 May 2010

As I pointed out several times already, it is the wrong question (to ask, to answer). Strategy is about finding the right questions. - Brya 05:40, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Brya05:40, 17 May 2010

I fail to see "How do we get more people from more cultures to participate?" is the wrong question to ask when diversity and participation are two of the stated goals of the movement. Because that's what "How are you going to get that native Hawaiian who is playing World of Warcraft to decide they'll play for 30 minutes less today, and contribute to Wikipedia?" is really asking.

Noraft06:10, 17 May 2010

Maybe if you decide to focus on Hawaiians you might lose at the same time grip on Norwegians which is hopefully not the goal of Wikipedia and not meant by diversity. If Haiwaiians are happy playing more WoW and less contributing to WP (hypothetically of course), I am fine with it. Diversity in my opinion can only mean to be as open to all cultures as possible and not willingly and unwillingly hinder one group from contributing, so to speak staying neutral. I should not mean to focus on the trophies we not yet have collected. Or should it?

134.76.223.216:09, 17 May 2010

I don't think anyone was saying "let's reach out to one group and exclude everyone else". Really, the issue is that the vast majority of Wikimedia volunteers are young white males from English-speaking countries. The goal is to reach out / open up to a lot of different groups.

Randomran18:15, 17 May 2010
 

If I start a club tomorrow, and make it "open to all cultures as possible," that doesn't make it diverse. Diverse is about actual representation, not openness.

The Wikimedia Foundation has already targeted certain cultures/areas for development and are giving grants for development in those areas. So talking about whether particular groups should be targeted is moot: they already are.

My questions relate to how you get someone who is not a contributor to become one. Besides time-prioritization, there are also access factors: they've got to already be computer users. Then they've got to be internet users. Then wikipedia readers. Before those steps are taken, contribution is not possible.

Those who are already habitual internet users are more likely to time-prioritize Wikipedia contributions higer. I bet we could come up with a list of factors that make contribution more likely. Market research can do some pretty amazing things, like tell what occupations and hobbies make someone more likely to be a contributor. Even what sorts of products they own may predict contribution to Wikipedia.

To me the problem is simple (solution less so): We need more diversity and participation. This will require getting more contributors in groups that are underrepresented. That in turn requires getting people in said groups who are not currently contributing to contribute. These people already fill their day with other activities. We need to figure out how to get them to add Wikipedia to their lives. Adding 30 minutes to a 24 hour day formerly occupied by other things requires removing 30 minutes of another activity (whether that be spending less time doing something, or spending less time doing nothing doesn't matter...that 30 minutes has to come from somewhere).

The Wikimedia Foundation is targeting various groups through local chapters. I'm a member of Wikimedia Philippines. If the Wikimedia Foundation does research, and finds some ways to increase contribution, then gives that information to all the chapters, I highly doubt that Wikimedia Philippines efforts here will hamper the efforts of Wikimedia Norway.

Noraft10:40, 18 May 2010