Existence ≠ Notability := Bad editing experience.

Existence ≠ Notability := Bad editing experience.

Deletion is a problem - especially regarding the notability criteriion.

Apart from the hungry deleters (dare I say it, Jackals) who hang around at the gates of new article creation, there seem to be a real need to audit the existing 3.6 Million articles regarding notability. If we are going to use an exclusion clause based on Notability, it seems to me that pre-existing articles that do not meet the current notability requirements must be addressed head on..

An alternative would be to remove the notability criterion for article existence; instead to provide some 'notable' attribution for those articles that pass a notability test; and then have notability as an inclusion criterion (eg in searches), rather than having non-notability as a deletion criterion.

Moreover, in a 'pure' sense, everything that is written is considered notable by the author of that writing. I prefer the idea of encouraging people to write articles, which can exist, be maintained, etc. and then the articles can be put forward for notability. If you have ever spent hours working on an article only to see it being deleted, called 'great, but not notable' - you may have a good idea about just how demoralising wikipedia editing can be.

The arguments for deleting the non-notable are weak - eg the database storage space - I may be wrong, but I would have thought that the discussion histories and user page histories (most of which are not notable) far outweigh the full bulk of non-notable articles that have ever been submitted to WP.

Obviously there has to be some nominal inclusion criteria - otherwise we may get jokers providing a single page of every single integer from 10^13 through 10^41 - maybe have independant 'seconders' for an article - but I believe that the Afd (notability) issue is deeply discouraging for new editors.

2004030213:13, 9 May 2011

The notability policy has a very practical application: discouraging people to write their CVs on Wikipedia. If there were no notability requirement, I would like to have an Wikipedia article all about myself. This would make me proud to be the subject of an encyclopedic article. And like me there are perhaps millions.

Tgeorgescu22:25, 13 May 2011

Well, I'm not convinced that we don't already have some form of CV-space on wikipedia - actually every registered editor has a user page, as well as a talk page.

The point I was making is that notability as a reason for exclusion is a great way to upset a lot of people who enter into the WP world. Actually, the requirement for RS as well as an avoidance of COI should be enough to prevent self-authored vanity WP Pages.

Likewise, I know of plenty of people who do indeed have WP pages. Lots of publishers now actively encourage new authors to generate a WP page - the publications model that WP is currently obsessed by implicitly encourages such activity.

2004030217:24, 14 May 2011

I agree. As topics get written on, the amount of 'notable' people left to write on shrinks, by any objective definition. If someone has an article deleted, or flagged for deletion, I suspect he'd be unlikely to try a second time. It's a chilling experience.

99.245.33.5218:19, 14 May 2011
 
 

My issue is this. A bio page about me got marked. I do appreciate you protecting my integrity- but even though I replied and updated the page about me- which contained perfectly acceptable information, and I added a paragraph stating so, which I said was by me, there is nowhere to click to have my input reviewed and/or validated. I really pretty much love everything about WIKI, accept that those who don't have a problem are subject to issues that they shouldn't be. I realize that this is a huge endeavor, but a "click for validation" choice that at least changes the "warning" on the page to "being validated" would not be a huge code to write, and would give you the time you need to validate information while not making the current information look completely suspect. all the best Sally

97.104.124.6100:48, 14 May 2011

You have a conflict of interests, therefore you should not edit the article about yourself. Only information rendered by reliable sources is admissible, and they get added by people who do not have a conflict of interests.

Tgeorgescu14:07, 14 May 2011

Like every other "should" on Wiki, this is a guideline, and not a rule. If the article requires it, then edit. On the article about me, for example, I've added cites for claims about me, deleted other uncited claims I consider wrong, added EL's for myself, and even rewritten text where it was unclear. In the spirit of the guideline, I have NOT done other things, such as writing uncited info about myself -- I haven't even added my birth date. 99.245.33.52 18:23, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

99.245.33.5218:23, 14 May 2011

Even if you are yourself, thus in a position to know yourself better than third parties, your judgment is no substitute for reliable sources, especially if they show criticism of your person. But, according to BLP guidelines, you are free to remove criticism which is not based upon reliable sources (this is even encouraged). E.g. suppose that you are a married man who had an extramarital affair and the press reported it. In such a case, it would be in your own interest to hide this information from the Wikipedia article, but it would be probably reverted due to vandalism. I mean: once the beans are spilled, there's no way to take them back. (I don't know if this applies to you.)

Tgeorgescu18:58, 14 May 2011
 
 
 

I hold by the idea that notability is not practical. Everything that has enough reliable sources should automatically be notable enough. Testing for sources is much easier and more objective anyway. - Brya 05:53, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Brya05:53, 14 May 2011

Of course the idea of notability isn't practical. You're right. Why do I find the bios of insignificant actresses in minor roles on TV shows and can't find the bios of significant politcal/military figures, just as an example?

Spikethedog08:40, 14 May 2011

Because some people cared about those actresses, they found reliable sources proving their notability and they have played fairly the Wikipedia game. Conversely, nobody cared about those leaders, not in the way of making a similar effort on their behalf. Wikipedia is run by voluntaries, therefore you cannot force them to write things they do not want to write. Instead, you are free to write about those leaders, taking due care of the Wikipedia policies.

Tgeorgescu19:01, 14 May 2011

I think you'd be surprised by what isn't found "notable". A village in Pakistan, a protest in the Kashmir where 25 people are killed - these things aren't notable, indeed, they may not be found worthy of even a sentence in Wikipedia. Something is notable because it's discussed in a "reliable source", by which we mean an English-language source appealing to Westerners or Western expatriates, such as an entertainment magazine, but not local Middle Eastern sources, which may be biased, associated with Iran's PressTV etc.

In addition, there are a vast number of special notability guidelines, more every day, which say that in some areas the general notability guideline is too strict and we should have every member of a sports team, every ship in a navy; in other areas they decide it's too lax and say a prank or terror threat has to have "enduring significance". There was even an elaborate guideline, don't know whether it passed or not, explaining how a railway employee killed by accident on a train is notable, but not if he's working on the track. Essentially, there's stuff that little groups of people have decided they like or don't like, and what's odd is that they love video games and sports, and they have little tolerance for serious-sounding stuff. It is all purely the projection of personal prejudice and censorial sentiments onto the encyclopedia; you could dig to the bottom of it and not find one honest thing about it.

Wnt19:49, 14 May 2011
 

Tgeorgescu, I hear you - but the entire RS edifice itself can be laborious and off-putting - especially when you find editors (and editor groups) who are viciously protective (and often incredibly biased) over their own watchlists.

But there is a problem with this too - the untrained tend to go in with a great deal of enthusiasm, even if they often have a rather narrow viewpoint, and there is a definite lack of humility in certain areas of the editorial field.

Wnt's position is also a valid one - I have been told at times that such and such an academic commentator is a PS, or out of date, or whatever - just because their peer-reviewed academic publications took place in another civilisation. There are entire cultures of academic development that still have deeper analysis within their domain than the academics of the current era; this is most especially true regarding the academics belonging to the great religions, but (IMO) highlighted most by the extensive academic literature of the Tibetan monastic universities (up until the moveable type printing press, there were more publications in Tibetan than every other language put together, and yet up until 1980's 'Western' academics of Buddhism and Buddhist philosophy relied almost exclusively on Pali, Sanskrit and Chinese sources). In certain areas, most Western academics are still six centuries or more behind contemporary Tibetan academic development.

None of this really advances my view:- that NOT is unnecessary and redundant, as long as we maintain both RS and COI (20040302)

2004030217:21, 15 May 2011

I can easily see why the English Wikipedia relies upon English language scholarship and news: it is easier to trust and understand scholars who write in English, it is easier to trust scholars educated and doing research according to the Western model, it is easier to trust mainstream English language press (instead of say the Libyan TV, since Western journalists are not forced to write patriotic or pro-Western articles, but I assume that censorship rules in Libyan press). I think that it is no secret that in many disciplines most of the cutting edge research is published in English. How about discussing Pali scholarship on the Pali Wikipedia? For translating it to English, you cannot be sure that you used the correct translation of a concept, since other Pali editors could have different translation for the same Pali word. So, in lack of English translations and English language scholarship, it is difficult to evaluate scholarship done in Pali. And there is yet another requirement, that of being verifiable. This means that secret writings cannot be trusted, since other editors cannot have access to such sources. In general, sources are verifiable if they are published, in journals, books, newspapers, websites, etc.

Tgeorgescu00:02, 26 May 2011