Task force/Offline/IRC/2009-11-10

walkerma: Hi Kelson - glad you could come! Hi Philippe! Hi Eekim! OK, I think we should get started pretty soon. Philippe, is there any general news about these strategy task forces we need to know about?

[11:03am] Philippe|Wiki: carry on We're pleased with how things are beginning

[11:03am] Philippe|Wiki: In the tool kit, we've added some new stuff

[11:03am] Philippe|Wiki: specifically, a template for creating recommendations.

[11:03am] Philippe|Wiki: I'm here to support you any way that I can, as is Bridgespan

[11:03am] Philippe|Wiki: And eekim will, no doubt, be keeping a watchful eye as well.

[11:04am] Philippe|Wiki:

[11:04am] eekim: not so much watchful, as curious and encouraging

[11:04am] hejko: hi all

[11:04am] Philippe|Wiki: hi hejko

[11:04am] eekim: hi!

[11:05am] walkerma: Hi Hejko! OK, I think we need to set some objectives today - what do we want this task force to achieve?

[11:05am] Philippe|Wiki: shall i field that?

[11:06am] walkerma: (Besides a complete revolution in how knowledge is disseminated- let's take that for granted!) Yes Philippe

[11:06am] Philippe|Wiki: As a general guideline, we're hoping that the task force will research and develop a very few concrete, data driven suggestions for direction.

[11:06am] Philippe|Wiki: By few, I mean 2-4

[11:06am] walkerma: Sounds good

[11:06am] Philippe|Wiki: Our hope is that you will work closely with the community and the questions and data they've developed

[11:06am] Philippe|Wiki:

[11:07am] eekim: as well as identify holes in the existing data

[11:07am] Philippe|Wiki: indeed, good point

[11:08am] walkerma: Which specific data are your referring to?

[11:08am] Philippe|Wiki: On the strategy wiki, there are some background papers that the Bridgespan team developed

[11:08am] Philippe|Wiki: in addition, there are a series of questions and answers from the community

[11:08am] Philippe|Wiki: Both of those things are linked from your task force page

[11:08am] Philippe|Wiki: because they questions are community developed, there are no doubt holes

[11:08am] eekim: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Offline_Task_Force#Task_force_related_analyses_and_data

[11:09am] Philippe|Wiki: yes

[11:09am] sarah476 joined the chat room.

[11:09am] sarah476: nic sarah476

[11:09am] eekim: morning sarah

[11:09am] Philippe|Wiki: hi Sarah!

[11:09am] sarah476: Hi guys

[11:09am] Philippe|Wiki: you probably know this already, but...

[11:10am] Philippe|Wiki: Sarah is your designated Bridgespan contact

[11:10am] walkerma: Hello sarah476

[11:10am] Philippe|Wiki: she's ready to be questioned mercilessly

[11:10am] sarah476: hi everyone- let me know how I can support you

[11:10am] walkerma: Yes - the other 475 Sarahs found the questions too merciless - I hope you're up to it!

[11:10am] sarah476:

[11:10am] Philippe|Wiki: She's better than the other 475

[11:12am] Amgine: bon fuseau horaire tout le monde.

[11:12am] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine

[11:12am] eekim: hi Amgine

[11:13am] walkerma: Bonjour Amgine. Philippe - when you refer to community input, are you referring to the "Proposals related to ..this task force"?

[11:13am] Philippe|Wiki: Those, and also the Questions That Need Answers page

[11:13am] walkerma: On the main Offline Task Force page

[11:14am] walkerma: Those questions are:

[11:14am] walkerma: The task force should develop answers to the following questions:

[11:14am] walkerma: 1. "How many more people will use Wikipedia etc. if we do this?"

[11:14am] walkerma: 2. What are the delivery mechanisms that are likely to drive an increase in offline readership? Who are the organizations and entities currently doing this work?

[11:14am] walkerma: 3. What 2-4 major strategic opportunities for investment would help to transformatively increase Wikimedia's readership among the five billion people who don't have internet access? Which languages and regions are top priority?

[11:14am] Philippe|Wiki: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Emerging_strategic_priorities/ESP_2_key_questions#off-line_distribution_of_Wikimedia_projects

[11:14am] walkerma: 4. What tools and support are necessary to make those strategies work?

[11:14am] walkerma: 5. Who is needed to support this strategy (e.g., Wikimedia Foundation, chapters, individual volunteers, external non-profit and for-profit partners), and what do they need to do?

[11:14am] walkerma: 6. Offline usage of the Wikimedia material inherently makes participation difficult. Are there ways to overcome this challenge, to enable offline readers of the Wikimedia projects to also make contributions?

[11:14am] walkerma: (I edited the first one, I admit, just to make it a bit clearer)

[11:14am] Philippe|Wiki: edits are good. it's a wiki

[11:15am] Philippe|Wiki: Those six questions should be a good starting point for you

[11:16am] Philippe|Wiki: They may lead you to others, but it's a place to start

[11:16am] sarah476: I recieved your request to help locate someone in the mobil phone industry to interview- I'm trying to figure out if the wikimedia contact at Orange would be good- i'll hopefully get back to you shortly

[11:16am] Philippe|Wiki: Sarah, are you working with Kul on that?

[11:16am] hejko: ok, thank you sarah

[11:16am] walkerma: I think nos 2-5 are the most important ones

[11:17am] JC joined the chat room.

[11:17am] Amgine: #1, however, provides the justification.

[11:18am] walkerma: True - but I also think it's a very hard question to answer precisely

[11:18am] Philippe|Wiki: Indeed. Some things may not be "know-able", but we should keep them in mind. That one's going to be hard to quantify

[11:18am] eekim: it's worth attempting to quantify as a way to help think through the issues

[11:19am] sarah476: eekim-yes we reached out to kul

[11:19am] hejko: Is this TF only about "reach" or can other factors like "prestige" also be an indicator?

[11:19am] Philippe|Wiki: hejko, that's sort of up to you. I'm not opposed to that, if we can find a way to put some data behind it.

[11:20am] Philippe|Wiki: Let's be wary of scope creep tho

[11:20am] Amgine: <nod> "1.5 billion students potential market", which requires defining products which work with/for educational settings.

[11:20am] walkerma: I think prestige (though it sounds elitist!) is worth considering too; if we get O'Reilly to publish books for us it's clearly better than a no-name publisher

[11:21am] sarah476: I would not stress too much about precisely quantifying difficult figures- but rather try and come up with a ball park estimate-I think first you need to identify the most promising offline delivery mechanisms and only later focus on how many people they will reach

[11:21am] eekim: sarah476, i don't think it's simply a matter of finding the right numbers (although that helps)

[11:21am] eekim: how would you think about quantifying?

[11:21am] eekim: for example, break it down into who would access wikipedia via an offline tool

[11:21am] eekim: then think about the implications of those demographics

[11:22am] eekim: thinking through 1 helps answers 3

[11:23am] sarah476: Getting a rough idea about who needs offline access- the demographics as eekim says is important- to answer questions 2 and 3 but investing a lot of time in developing precise numbers probubly would be less helpful

[11:23am] eekim: i agree with that

[11:23am] Amgine: d'accord.

[11:24am] walkerma: I think that most people attending this IRC think the answer is "probably a lot"! It's one of those things that's hard to predict until it happens- like trying in 2001 to predict the impact of Wikipedia in 2009

[11:25am] hejko: ok. but the basic goal is to identify the mechanisms that have the largest impact on each dollar spend

[11:25am] hejko: ?

[11:25am] Amgine: So what are the 'low-hanging fruit' of that "a lot"? I would assume they are education settings (where concentrated users have distributed, supported technologies), library systems, and other pre-existing knowledge networks.

[11:27am] walkerma: Yes, schools are a natural place. THat's where OLPC has had success with Wikipedia, and also Wizzy gets a very good reception for Wikipedia to schools

[11:28am] walkerma: Schools are also the most likely place for people in remote areas to have computer access

[11:29am] Philippe|Wiki: They're a natural home for things like wiki-reader, too

[11:30am] walkerma: One problem we have is that our resources are nearly really adult products, other than one or two things like Wikikids there isn't a lot aimed at kids, especially younger kids

[11:30am] Philippe|Wiki: interesting point, walkerma

[11:31am] walkerma: User:BozMo has done his best to adapt en:WP for kids, though

[11:31am] Philippe|Wiki: i haven't looked at his stuff

[11:31am] Philippe|Wiki: it's on my list

[11:32am] walkerma: http://schools-wikipedia.org/

[11:32am] sarah476_ joined the chat room.

[11:33am] sarah476_: nic sarah476

[11:33am] Philippe|Wiki: wb, sarah

[11:33am] sarah476_: sorry- got booted off

[11:33am] You were promoted to operator by ChanServ.

[11:33am] You kicked sarah476 from the chat room. (Philippe|Wiki)

[11:33am] You demoted yourself from operator.

[11:34am] sarah476_: hello

[11:35am] Philippe|Wiki: you're here

[11:35am] Amgine: You're here.

[11:35am] sarah476_: just checking

[11:35am] walkerma: I heard SJ's talk at Wikimania, and he said that the teachers in remote schools (in Peru) were thrilled with having es:WP available, and they wanted more

[11:35am] Amgine: Which product to provide for offline readers is really secondary, although the idea of age-specific wikipedias is very interesting.

[11:35am] Philippe|Wiki: Sj is a good resource for this group I think

[11:37am] sarah476_: I think that secondary school students is the primary target

[11:37am] sarah476_: for schools

[11:37am] Philippe|Wiki: Sj would disagree, I think i know that OLPC targets younger

[11:38am] Amgine: & uni, as the groups most likely to use offline wiki readers.

[11:38am] walkerma: sarah476: I think you're probably right, though Sj also knows a lot about this topic!

[11:38am] walkerma: I think the two main media we have for offline releases are an electronic format (USB key or DVD), and books. Each of those reaches a different group, I think

[11:38am] Amgine: Philippe|Wiki: Just describing the group with the largest potential uptake of the technology.

[11:39am] Amgine: walkerma: what about phones?

[11:39am] FloNight_ joined the chat room.

[11:39am] Philippe|Wiki: Good point, Amgine.

[11:39am] walkerma: Yes, you're right, #3

[11:40am] walkerma: (I don't own a cellphone, I always forget such things!)

[11:40am] Amgine: In certain markets cell phones outnumber computers nearly 100:1

[11:40am] walkerma: Amgine - I know you're right!

[11:40am] hejko: yes this is what i am really interested in: can a selection of WP be bundled with the next gen of ultra low cost phones.

[11:41am] FloNight_ is now known as Flo.

[11:41am] Philippe|Wiki: i dont know how much memory phones have, but i know the general rules about memory cost

[11:42am] hejko: the problem might not be memory but the efforts necessary do develop the software for the N most common platforms.

[11:42am] Flo is now known as FloNightt.

[11:42am] walkerma: The FOundation people really like Wikipock (though it may just be because they're close to the WMF offices!?)

[11:42am] walkerma: http://www.wikipock.com/

[11:42am] Philippe|Wiki: There's the support issue as well.....

[11:42am] Philippe|Wiki: development isn't enough

[11:43am] eekim: another important technology to keep in mind: paper

[11:43am] Philippe|Wiki: paper? how quaint<G> but yes, good point as well

[11:44am] walkerma: One issue I've seen with Wikipock is that the data boxes and pictures are mostly missing - these are very important IMHO. That's an issue with phone releases

[11:44am] Amgine: Paper is good, and it has been tried. There's a developed tool for creating custom paper wikipedias.

[11:44am] walkerma: hejko: Do you want to introduce yourself?

[11:45am] hejko: hi i am heiko and work for pediapress - a company that offers custom books based on wiki content

[11:45am] eekim:

[11:45am] Philippe|Wiki: Thanks, by the way, for the python script, hejko

[11:46am] eekim: hejko, what was the motivation for starting pediapress? and what's the opportunity?

[11:46am] Amgine: <grin> :[:[mediawiki:Extension:Collection]] ??

[11:46am] hejko: thinking of paper : we are using the print on demand production process, which is not cheap.

[11:46am] Philippe|Wiki: That's hte one, Amgine

[11:46am] hejko: yes, colelction extension.

[11:46am] Amgine: <nods>

[11:48am] hejko: but for schools, projects, etc. print runs of 1000+ books are also possible which would could be produced way cheaper. for e.g. in india a book can cost as less as $0.80 in the production.

[11:48am] Philippe|Wiki: hejko: is there a way to lower that price?

[11:48am] Philippe|Wiki: ahh, volume

[11:49am] hejko: we'd love to work with projects and printers in developing countries that aim to provide cheap books based on WP content.

[11:50am] walkerma: I think there are probably two markets for books - one is specialist books for sale in wealthy countries, and another is more general encyclopedic content for schools in developing countries. The ideal would be to use local printers in the countries where the books will be distributed.

[11:50am] hejko: yes

[11:51am] walkerma: Can the WMF help with that?

[11:51am] walkerma: With finding local needs and local publishers/printers?

[11:52am] hejko: Are there local needs at all?

[11:53am] walkerma: Local needs for books, is what I mean.

[11:53am] sarah476_: at this stage I wouldn't be too concerned with what the foundation can and can't do- the taskforces job is to make strategic recommendations- some of these recommendations will entail the foundation doing things they haven't done before

[11:53am] Amgine: Yes. It's identifying the people who would be interested in books from wp, and what those books would include.

[11:53am] hejko: Yes, but, do we know them?

[11:54am] eekim: also remember that this is a planning process for the movement, not just the foundation

[11:54am] Amgine: <nod w/Sara476>

[11:54am] nimish_g joined the chat room.

[11:55am] walkerma: hejko: No, we don't currently know such needs, though we have a handful of field contacts who might be able to help

[11:55am] FloNight left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[11:56am] walkerma: BTW, I'm not proposing a 6900 volume boxed set of 3 million articles - I'm talking about targeted general releases (e.g., the top 30,000 general topics, plus comprehensive coverage of content relevant to the country/region)

[11:56am] Philippe|Wiki: <grin> that's good. shipping charges alone.....

[11:56am] walkerma: Maybe 1-10 volumes

[11:58am] Amgine: I think, perhaps, the TF should address #2 at the moment: What are the delivery mechanisms that are likely to drive an increase in offline readership?

[11:59am] Amgine: No one has mentioned standalone dedicated hardware like the WikiReader?

[11:59am] eekim: good polnt, Amgine

[12:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: WikiReader is seriously cool

[12:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: i carried it around Paris

[12:00pm] eekim: i'd encourage this group to collect these options and ideas on the wiki

[12:01pm] eekim: what would people say are the key takeaways from this conversation?

[12:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: should we plot a course forward

[12:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: or, what Eekim said

[12:01pm] walkerma: I will need to go fairly soon - can I propose that for the next session we focus on question 2

[12:01pm] hejko: I missed the beginning of this session. Who is in our group? There are only three members listed at the TF page.

[12:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: Those three for sure. As well, any members of the community who wish to join There may be a few more targeted invites.

[12:02pm] Amgine: <is an interested bystander, not a member>

[12:02pm] walkerma: Yes, I hope some of the other names at this meeting will consider joining and becoming active!

[12:02pm] hejko: Philippe|Wiki: please invite Amgine

[12:02pm] walkerma: Yes!

[12:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: hejko, i think you just did

[12:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine would be good on this though, i agree.

[12:03pm] walkerma: Eekim: I think we've agreed that (a) Schools are a major target for offline releases, as a great place to disseminate knowledge to the community

[12:03pm] Amgine: <grumbles> I'll consider. Boss might not like it. <is married to the boss.>

[12:04pm] eekim: great, martin

[12:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine, relationship over wikimedia? your priorities are wrong

[12:04pm] eekim: that would be good to publish on your wiki page and possibly post to LiquidThreads so that others can continue the conversation

[12:04pm] walkerma: (b) We discussed several "delivery mechanisms" - electronic, phone, book, Wikireader, Vulcan mind meld (the last one is my addition)

[12:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: i wasn't aware that the Vulcan mind meld was out of beta?

[12:05pm] walkerma: Everything here is beta! I think we should aim to meet again soon - shall we say in a fortnight?

[12:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: I would encourage some concrete goals: what would you like to discuss then? who owns what topic?

[12:06pm] eekim: i'd also encourage wiki conversation in addition to these meetings

[12:06pm] walkerma: eekim: Yes - use the wiki

[12:07pm] eekim: you've already done a good job of this; please continue!

[12:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: by the way, i'll be adding this log to the wiki as well

[12:07pm] walkerma: Philippe: I'd propose we home in on a couple of the delivery mechanisms

[12:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: just an idea, and feel free to tell me i'm wrong... but would it make sense to identify the target audiences and then the delivery vehicle that makes sense for each?

[12:09pm] walkerma: I think we're considering schools as the target for our initial discussions, is that right?

[12:09pm] hejko: No, I'd go beyond schools.

[12:10pm] hejko: E.g. in some countries girls do not attend schools. Or poeple are only for a short time in schools.

[12:11pm] walkerma: hejko: How would you distribute (say) Wikipedia releases to those people?

[12:11pm] hejko: Cell phones.

[12:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: NGOs?

[12:11pm] walkerma: How would they find out about the releases?

[12:11pm] peteforsyth joined the chat room.

[12:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: hi peteforsyth

[12:12pm] hejko: They would be bundled and never updated.

[12:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: that's why i suggest NGOs.... they have ongoing contact....

[12:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: in some cases

[12:12pm] peteforsyth: morning Philippe|Wiki !

[12:12pm] peteforsyth: er, good mornfternoon I mean

[12:14pm] yann|away is now known as yannf.

[12:14pm] hejko: walkerma: I agree with schools as a target for our first discussion. but i would consider other audiences at least in a second one.

[12:14pm] walkerma: hejko: I like that idea

[12:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: me too

[12:15pm] sarah476_: great work today guys- I've got to run bye

[12:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: see ya sarah

[12:15pm] walkerma: So maybe we could discuss books and electronic releases for schools at meeting 2, then consider wikireader and cellphones for reaching "general public" at meeting 3?

[12:15pm] walkerma: Bye sarah

[12:15pm] sarah476_ left the chat room. ("Page closed")

[12:17pm] walkerma: OK, should we meet at the same time in two weeks' time? WOuld that be OK? Is this time slot OK?

[12:17pm] hejko: walkerma: yes to the timeline. and yes to the time slot.

[12:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK by me

[12:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: though i may not come to every meeting

[12:18pm] walkerma: Understood

[12:18pm] walkerma: eekim ?

[12:18pm] walkerma: Amgine ?

[12:19pm] eekim: same as philippe. i'll drop in when i can. it's mainly for your task force.

[12:19pm] Amgine: Heh.

[12:19pm] eekim: i'll track the notes, though, and participate on the wiki regardless

[12:19pm] Amgine: I'm usually online.

[12:19pm] Amgine: I can put it in my calendar.

[12:21pm] Amgine: Shall we have an agenda for next meeting we can work on?

[12:21pm] eekim: thanks for organizing, martin

[12:21pm] eekim: this was a great first meeting

[12:21pm] hejko: Amgine: eekim: would you tell me your names on strategy.wikimedia.org?

[12:21pm] Amgine: Amgine.

[12:21pm] eekim: hejko, User:Eekim

[12:21pm] hejko: thanks

[12:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: Thanks everyone

[12:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: this is a great start

[12:22pm] Amgine: <has been Amgine online since, oh, mid 80s>

[12:22pm] hejko: yes, thanks. hope to meet you in the wiki also.

[12:22pm] walkerma: Agenda: How best to reach schools in developing countries? How should we produce, publish and distribute electronic releases? Book releases?

[12:23pm] walkerma: Does that sound OK? Have I missed something?

[12:23pm] eekim: sounds good, martin

[12:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: if you put that on the wiki, it can be developed if need be

[12:23pm] Amgine: Yes: url.

[12:23pm] Amgine: <grins>

[12:24pm] hejko: Philippe|Wiki: can you point me to a TF that has a good organization of their topics? so we could use it as an example?

[12:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: hejko: you're sort of the first one going You and the Community Health one

[12:25pm] eekim: china and reader conversion have also been active

[12:25pm] eekim: Community Health has been the most active thus far

[12:25pm] walkerma: Great! I'll stay logged on, though I'm currently running in & out of the lab!

[12:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: indeed... China's pretty well organized, actually

[12:25pm] hejko: I think we already could create some sub pages

[12:25pm] eekim: thanks again, everyone

[12:25pm] eekim: yes, hejko, good idea

[12:26pm] walkerma: Thanks a LOT, it's been very helpful, I think

[12:26pm] eekim: bye walkerma!

[12:26pm] walkerma: Bye

[12:26pm] eekim: bye hejko and Amgine

[12:26pm] eekim: thanks everyone

[12:26pm] hejko: bye walkerma and thanks!

[12:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: bye all