Task force/Offline/IRC/2010-01-07

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<Philippe|Wiki>	likewise :)
<walkerma>	Hi everyone!
<Amgine>	<waves>
<Philippe|Wiki>	Hello walkerma :)
<Amgine>	Okay, the last meeting is *still* finishing up... (supposed to end an hour ago)
<walkerma>	I think wizzy will be joining us soon. hejko_ - are you there?
<walkerma>	OK - should we go to another channel?
<hejko_>	there
<hejko_>	hi
<Amgine>	No no, it's *in* a different channel.
<hejko_>	give me an invite
<Amgine>	<is in too many conversations, sorry about the lag>
<Philippe|Wiki>	We're staying here... this one is fine.
<Philippe|Wiki>	The other meeting, which just ended, was in another channel :)
<walkerma>	OK, no problem then.
<Amgine>	<nods>
<walkerma>	brassratgirl: Are you there?
<brassratgirl>	hi
<brassratgirl>	I am, but I'm just hanging out; I didn't know there was a meeting
<Amgine>	walkerma has plans to second some of your time, braassratgirl.
<Amgine>	But that's later in the meeting.
<Amgine>	Recommendation #2: Cell phone platform.
<Amgine>	Approximately 4% of subsaharan africa have computer hardware.
<Amgine>	(reach report)
<walkerma>	brassratgirl: I was wondering if you could help us talk to UDC at some point, negotiate a deal - work with Amgine & me. That's it - we need to get onto no. 2, as Amgine points out
<hejko_>	regarding Rec #2: I think the only thin we really know, is that this is a great opportunity to bring WMF content to another 3 billion people. but we have few (backed by numbers) details to give on how this can be implemented.
<Amgine>	<nods>
<walkerma>	http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Task_force/Offline#Summary_of_reach_and_regional_analyses_2144
<Amgine>	I believe we have two specific implementations:
<Amgine>	One that is for live viewing on a cell phone, the other is an offline repository.
<hejko_>	therfore I'd recommend to the WMF that they set up a project that clarifies on the open issues
<walkerma>	This is the recommendation we're discussing: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations/Offline_2
<hejko_>	live viewing is not an option and the offline rep might not work with ultra low cost handsets.
<hejko_>	again, I'd leave the implementation details up to another project. i think it is sufficient to state that it is doable.
<walkerma>	yes
<Amgine>	Yes, I agree. And there is a third option as well: Okawix/Linterweb is working on viewer based on a Mozilla initiative.
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<walkerma>	I think we should offer all three options, but perhaps say which one is most useful for developing countries
<Amgine>	That would be endorsing a third party? I think either wikipock or linterweb will work best (compared with live viewing) in the classroom.
<hejko_>	unsure. the suitability of the options depend on the next gen hardware specs, which is something we still don't know.
<hejko_>	classroom?
<walkerma>	Amgine- not specific endorsements (except maybe of Mozilla?), more a case of listing three general approaches
<Amgine>	Well, the ultiate setting is "place without internet that needs wp as an education tool".
<Amgine>	ultimate... darned 'm' key is dying.
<walkerma>	Amgine: I think the cellphone users are likely to be different from the school users - IMHO
<walkerma>	cellphone users are mainly going to be individual adults; for schools we will be going in via electronic collections on USB key or similar, I think
<Amgine>	Maybe. Remember, the cellphone is changing rapidly into a netbook, and they're *cheap* compared even to the OLPC.
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<walkerma>	Hi BozMo!
<walkerma>	This is SJ's comment on classroom uses:
<walkerma>	Inexpensive netbooks priced for smaller children and school districts
<walkerma>	are starting to dominate distribution to primary school students and
<walkerma>	families in poorer areas. Wikimedia should be directly engaging every
<walkerma>	major majufacturer; asus & acer have a supermajority of the commercial
<walkerma>	market in those regions, and have their own default content & software
<walkerma>	that ship with their builds.
<hejko_>	Amgine: but this is for the cell phones marketed in the developing countries. I assume that the most simple and cheap handsets will be the predominant ones used in developing countries for the next several years.
<hejko_>	+1
<Amgine>	<nods> <agrees with sj as usual>
<walkerma>	He goes on to say:
<walkerma>	Outside the classroom & for read-only purposes, cell phones/smartphones will remain by far the most active distributor of WP and other knowledge.
<Amgine>	I'm not sure netbooks, as a market, will survive well enough to have the economies of scale that cellphones are developing. But that's prognosticating.
<walkerma>	I think that fits in with what we've said here, by & large, though I was unaware of the penetration of Acer etc.
<Amgine>	And, even without classroom use cellphones are clearly a priority for offline use of WMF primary content.
<walkerma>	definitely
<walkerma>	And we need to support them, in case they DO become the standard medium in the classroom
<walkerma>	But reaching adult individuals is still very much in line with our mission, anyway
<Amgine>	One of the tools I actually use on my iPod (which is normally so much pocket ballast) is a dictionary app.
<Amgine>	Another is Stanza, to read books from Gutenberg.
<BozMo>	All seems sensible so far (am a bit intermittent on PC being bathtime)
<walkerma>	I have a question; should we be recommending building collaborations with cellphone producers like Nokia? That isn't in the recommendation at present, but I think perhaps it should be - but I know embarrassingly little about cellphones
<Amgine>	Apps like that will/should be on cell phones both now and in the future, and WMF has content to feed either of them.
<hejko_>	walkerma: yes manufacturers or providers who could urge the former
<hejko_>	to add WP as a feature
<walkerma>	hejko_: Who would be the providers? Is that people like Virgin or Verizon?
<hejko_>	e.g. we suggest that they set up a project that contacts providers and manufacturers to clarify the open issues and their willingness to support such an endeavour
<hejko_>	walkerma: yes
<Amgine>	Yes, the telcos walkerma
<walkerma>	hejko_: Sounds good!
<hejko_>	what else should we add to: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations/Offline_2
<Amgine>	<reloads>
<hejko_>	should we list the known open questions?
<Amgine>	Yes, please, so we can keep track of "known unknowns"
<walkerma>	hejko_: Please do!
<hejko_>	what will ultra low cost cellphone hardware specs be over the next years?
<walkerma>	I'm drafting what I think we've agreed so far, I'll post that once we've closed the gaps
<hejko_>	are telcos seeing a benefit in selling phones that have WP content pre loaded?
<Amgine>	hejko_: we discussed that once before, and someone with WMF was going to talk with oems about it.
<Amgine>	A reasonable estimate is 16GB of storage.
<hejko_>	which effort is necessary to adapt existing software or develop new software for those upcoming cell phones?
<hejko_>	Amgine: ah, i missed that. was there any outcome yet?
<Amgine>	The mozilla project pm27 pointed us to is a major dependency for Linterweb.
<Amgine>	No, as of Tuesday still no responses.
<hejko_>	who at the WMF is talking to the oems?
<Amgine>	wikipock doesn't have that dependency, but I think it only works on one of the OSes.
<Amgine>	Philippe|Wiki: Who at WMF was going to contact cellphone oems?
<walkerma>	This is what wizzy said on Nov 24th, about the situation in South Africa: All phones have microSD slots. mine is empty. I have 128M onboard, none of which (? I think) is used by the OS ?
<walkerma>	<wizzy> It says (now) 23M in use, 96M free. I have a fancy phone - E71
<walkerma>	<Amgine> <mmm> I think 4GBmSD are actually quite cheap at the moment, as everyone is shifting to 8/16.
<walkerma>	<wizzy> but so do others. Kids don't.
<walkerma>	<Amgine> But you would say cellphones are more readily accessible than either computers or internet?
<walkerma>	<wizzy> I think a text-only, xml section 0, dump of v.07 whould fit nicely
<walkerma>	<Amgine> Especially of - say - 30 000 articles.
<Amgine>	Nope, I was wrong, wikipock will work on Windows mobile, symbian, android, and blackberry.
<Amgine>	<thinks about those numbers for a moment>
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<Amgine>	assuming an average of 1k per section 0, a perfect storage would require ~3MB.
<walkerma>	pm27 thinks he can compress things better in the future, and Patrice indicated the same - and in fact they are going to meet one another in Paris soon to discuss data compression
<Amgine>	Assume the reader would entail another 1MB...
<walkerma>	OK: I think we should see if there are any other "open questions" on cellphones - are there?
<walkerma>	We can put the numbers for memory etc into the recommendation later if necessary
<Amgine>	Open question: comparison of hardware reach with netbooks, desktops.
<Philippe|Wiki>	Amgine: Sorry, I was pulled away to talk to Moka.
<Philippe|Wiki>	Amgine: I'm not sure, but I know Bridgespan was still looking. I'd say our window has closed on that, so just make it work.
<Philippe|Wiki>	and we'll fill in details later.
<Amgine>	<nods>
<walkerma>	Thanks Philippe
<walkerma>	From http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Local_language_projects/Commons_and_differences_in_reach_and_regional_analyses
<walkerma>	The overall numbers for Sub-Saharan Africa is 4% and in addition most people with internet connection use the colonial languages for written communication, but mobile phone penetration is however significantly more widespread than internet use.
<walkerma>	(Numbers refer to internet penetration)
<walkerma>	Vietnam, Thailand and Indonesia have values around 11-12%, while Cambodia, Myanmar, Lao and Timor Leste have rates of less than 2%.
<Amgine>	Right, but that's really really soft and squishy. Do they have actual numbers anywhere?
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<walkerma>	Another issue is use of "internet primarily for email and social networking"
<Amgine>	Heh. would love to know their methodology - and instrument normalization - for *that* question.
<walkerma>	Amgine: We could ask the local language task force who produced the data: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Local_language_projects
<walkerma>	Are there any other open questions?
<Amgine>	<waggles hand> Idle curiousity. I do some work with survey research.
<Philippe|Wiki>	waggle?
<Philippe|Wiki>	huh, who knew: to waggle (third-person singular simple present waggles, present participle waggling, simple past and past participle waggled)
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<Philippe|Wiki>	To move (something) with short, quick motions; to wobble.
<hejko_>	ok, if there are no more questions, do we have another topic?
<Amgine>	Sex, or breakfast.
<hejko_>	:)
<walkerma>	OK: It seems to me that we have agreed on the following:
<walkerma>	1. WP on cellphones are critical for reaching individual adult (and teen) users in developing countries, because reach is much greater than internet
<walkerma>	2. There are three strategies for supplying WM content to cellphone users: (a) Online access; (b) Offline access using specifically designed software (WikiPock style) or (c) Offline access using a modified browser (Linterweb style, if I understood it right)
<walkerma>	3. We need to work with manufacturers and providers of cellphones to make sure WP will work well in upcoming products.
<walkerma>	4. If we go the offline route, We need to design our releases around likely memory capabilities
<walkerma>	5. Sex or breakfast (or preferably both) should be included, as a way to increase reach
<walkerma>	Is that OK?
<Amgine>	2 is wrong. WikiPock and Linterweb are roughly equivalent. The mozilla framework is a multiplatform development framework - not a modified browser.
<hejko_>	sexual education is an important topic and food is essential. these topics should certainly be featured in the selection.
<walkerma>	OK, I'm not surprised I'm wrong on the tech stuff. Can you rephrase no. 2 so it's correct?
<Amgine>	<laughs> Will do it now.
<Amgine>	Oh, hmm, not saved yet.
<Amgine>	2. There are two strategies for supplying WM content to cellphone users: (a) Online access; (b) Offline access using a custom reader (WikiPock, Linterweb)
<Amgine>	Incidentally, the Linterweb tool is moving to OpenZim.
<walkerma>	Incidentally - Wikipock's new&improved software will be open source
<walkerma>	OK, if anyone thinks of any other open questions, please raise those on-wiki
<Amgine>	It will be? <surprised>
<walkerma>	I'm pretty sure that's what Patrice said
<walkerma>	I think it may be the price he has to pay in order to work closely with WMF
<walkerma>	But that's purely speculation, so that probably shouldn't appear in the official log
<Amgine>	<grins> I should go digging around for their storage model.
<Amgine>	http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mobile_reach
<Amgine>	Just found.
<walkerma>	Thanks!
<hejko_>	I think these are also linked at our TF page ;)
<Amgine>	<nods> I just hadn't read them before.
<walkerma>	I think I have read this before! I just forgot where it was!
<walkerma>	OK, we have three main strands remaining: Books, offline editing, and content selection. I'd like to think that the first two are somewhat related, in that they could centre around a schools proposal
<Amgine>	<whince> offline editing....
<walkerma>	They could go into a single recommendation, I think, on using schools as a distribution point (which SJ says is a VERY GOOD IDEA)
<hejko_>	whince?
<Amgine>	<on that I'm not in full agreement with sj>
<walkerma>	We agreed to do books first today - so I'd like to ask hejko_ what his thoughts are, since we first discussed this
<Amgine>	Offline editing is really cool, conceptually. But the idea of versioning from a hugely distributed network...
<Amgine>	<nods>
<hejko_>	WP books for schools IMHO only make since if these are cheaper than any substitude
<hejko_>	substitute
<hejko_>	e.g. either they are on a topic that is not available in traditionally published books or they are cheaper or way more up to date
<Amgine>	<considers> For secondary or college they make sense for instructors who are creating custom curricula, rather than using a mass-published curricula.
<hejko_>	we have no clue if/what content is missing in schoolsof developing countries, right?
<Amgine>	Not quite true: most of these target countries use donated curricula.
<walkerma>	Let me give you SJs comments on that, as he gives some insights (relevant at least for Peru, probably elsewhere too).
<walkerma>	I asked: Can you offer any insights on other methods for distribution of Wikimedia content?
<walkerma>	I think ultra-cheap books remain the best short-term way; we need much much better printing/publishing contacts.
<Philippe|Wiki>	hejko_: my understanding is that curricula is fairly well mapped out... I'd have to find some sources for that tho
<walkerma>	(was his initial answer)
<walkerma>	<SJ> Even where OLPC and the like exist, power is often hard to come by. You won't always be able to leave your shared phone on for an hour while reading. Print is the cheapest way to produce a readable copy of wikipedia for areas that have no reliable computing. India-style textbook printers that use newsprint could make a 30k-article encyclopedia for a few dollars in paper form, and it...
<walkerma>	...could be used at all times of the day and night unlike a USB key + 'net cafe.
<hejko_>	from my experience: publishers in india very interested in licensing WP content
<walkerma>	<SJ> You'd have to use local printers, else the shipping cost would match production cost.
<hejko_>	but they aimed to market it at a high price as "reference works"
<Amgine>	<grin> CC-by-sa
<hejko_>	yes. but typesetting for print is not trivial
<Amgine>	<nods> Your system effectively circumvents the typesetting, yes?
<hejko_>	yes
<hejko_>	automates
<Amgine>	I've seen it marketed already on non-WMF installations of Mediawiki.
<hejko_>	one idea unrelated to developing countries:
<Amgine>	"We'll print a magazine of your wiki..."
<hejko_>	i think OER content needs to be offered as printed books in order to take off
<walkerma>	OER = ?
<hejko_>	Amgine: that probably was wikia
<Philippe|Wiki>	Open Educational Resources.
<walkerma>	Thanks
<Amgine>	hejko_ Probably.
<hejko_>	like Wikieducator or even Wikibooks
<Philippe|Wiki>	(I'm glad to get to answer a question occassionally, most of this conversation is so far over my head I can't see the bottom of it)
<hejko_>	I am unsure whether we should recommend to the WMF to intensify their ties to free textbook initiatives.
<Amgine>	Hejko_: I think the WMF should strengthen their *support* of free textbook initiatives.
<hejko_>	The wikibooks.org project is not really doing as well as it could. printed books could attract new interest into this project.
<Amgine>	There is a relatively low-level direct cost, and the potential for fairly impressive leverage of those Initiative's funding.
<Amgine>	Initiatives'
<Philippe|Wiki>	Amgine: have you mentioned that to the Advocacy Agenda folks? :)
<Philippe|Wiki>	http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Advocacy_Agenda
<Amgine>	<laughs> Definitely not.
<Amgine>	*One* tf, philippe|wiki. Only one.
<hejko_>	What about rescheduling this topic (printed books) as we won't make it into a proposal till next week anyway ?
<Amgine>	Hejko_: Is there an international network of custom printers?
<Amgine>	Sure.
<hejko_>	custom printers == on demand printers?
<Amgine>	Yes.
<walkerma>	hejko_: I'm thinking we could mention books as one tool for school use, as part of a broader recommendation on use of schools as distribution points for WM educational materials
<hejko_>	well we are working with five companies that have facilities in seven countries.
<walkerma>	We could call it recommendation no. 3 (which actually does talk about this, but only as a question!)
<walkerma>	http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations/Offline_3
<walkerma>	Hejko_: Do you have connections in developing countries? If so, where?
<walkerma>	I'm thinking we could explore that as a pilot project - if it works, try in other countries
<hejko_>	walkerma: not really, we have partners in brazil, argentinia, mexico and eastern germany :)
<hejko_>	otherwise in UK, US, Sweden, Spain
<hejko_>	we had numerous offers to work with printers in india
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<walkerma>	Brazil may not be the poorest country, but it certainly has many poor people and many remote areas - maybe it could work? Not sure about the pt resources though. India would be good, I think, especially as English has a strong presence there
<Philippe|Wiki>	We do have a ton of Wikimedia folks in both Brazil and India that might be good for shepherding the trial as well
<Amgine>	<is thinking of Kinkos, etc.> My partner is a research professor, and is often sending out packets to be printed/bound by such micro-printers.
<hejko_>	but digital printing is way to expensive. if thinking about this strategy we should go with a traditional printer and have print runs with at least 1.000+ itmes
<walkerma>	The India WikiProject on en is one of the most active and best organised
<walkerma>	Or was, last time I looked
<walkerma>	hejko_: Yes, but could you advise us on traditional printing? Could you facilitate the process, and help us find suitable partners, in collaboration with the Indian or Brazilian chapters?
<hejko_>	I think finding printers is easy, just ask those local chapter people they certainly have an idea whom to ask
<walkerma>	We need to make sure that those printers aren't "sharks"!
<walkerma>	or "cowboys"!
<walkerma>	(Either taking money off people and not delivering, or just doing a really crappy job)
<Amgine>	We can't protect all our readers/users all of the time.
<hejko_>	maybe we should rather look for a partner who can also help with the distribution. e.g. traditional publishing houses.
<Amgine>	For this TF we need to look at the larger goals, and I think improving support for printing content is high on that list.
<hejko_>	as said before, they are looking for content. and there certainly "fair" publishing houses which are specialized on educational content.
<walkerma>	There must be reputable, established publishing houses in Brazil or India which can still deliver books at very low cost
<Amgine>	<nods> But that's more a task for local chapters.
<hejko_>	yep
<walkerma>	OK, do we have any remaining "open questions" on the books for now? Or can we move to cover item 3 (at least briefly)?
<hejko_>	further local chapters could help to analyze the required content
<hejko_>	what is the conclusion on item 2? books may be helpful and are possible?
<Amgine>	Not sure about #3: I have some other tasks going so my attention percentage here is going down.
<Amgine>	Books are helpful. Current tools are lightyears in improvement over previous. We need to continue/expand support for printed publication of WMF content.
<walkerma>	hejko: I think on item 2 we can say "Books may be helpful and are possible, especially in educational settings" and "these could be published & printed locally"
<walkerma>	Also "WMF should support tools that make it easier for the community to produce books, and a mechanism for schools or educational authorities to advise on book needs"
<hejko_>	ok, but we should somehow detail on why books are helpful. we really have only ideas but no real supporting data here.
<walkerma>	BozMo: Do you have any comments?
<walkerma>	hejko_: I was hoping YOU might have some data :)
<Amgine>	Books are cheap, non-ongoing cost alternatives to digital devices. They have local acceptance.
<hejko_>	like "there is no book on breakfast in Kiswahili"?
<walkerma>	As SJ points out - they still work when the power goes out!
<walkerma>	(or if there is no mains power to begin with!)
<hejko_>	this is correct. but is there unique and required WMF content that is not already available as printed books?
<Amgine>	No. It's the collection (or the subselection) which is unique and useful.
<walkerma>	hejko_: I think cost is the key issue. A chemistry reference book is either pirated or costs a small fortune. A mediawiki product doesn't need to worry about copyright costs, so it can be both cheap and legal
<walkerma>	My students' textbook is around $170...
<walkerma>	(for a college course, admittedly)
<hejko_>	true for specialized reference works but not necessarily for text books in public schools.
<hejko_>	any way to bring down cost of printed knowledge is a nobel goal.
<walkerma>	My point is that a book -say, a reference book on the chemical elements - might not be unique, but it could be bought LEGALLY for $3 in India instead of perhaps $5-10. Is that not correct?
<hejko_>	yes
<walkerma>	That is certainly worthwhile, especially if those books go into a million schools!
<hejko_>	Strategy: Offer reference work PDFs to any interested publishing house for free. This will bring down the cost of these books.
<hejko_>	+ support them with creating custom selections.
<walkerma>	hejko: Could this allow "traditional publishing" (i.e. the low cost printing)?
<hejko_>	yes
<walkerma>	Then I think we have the basis of a sub-recommendation
<walkerma>	(sub in the sense of "part of the bigger recommendation")
<walkerma>	We're now at the two hour point, and I really need to move onto other things - I'm sure you do, too.
<walkerma>	Could I ask people to review the thread I posted at :http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Task_force/Offline/Editing_and_contributions_from_offline_users
<hejko_>	yes
<walkerma>	That covers item no. 3 on our list. Amgine has indicated that he isn't too keen on the idea, but I know that SJ is gung-ho on the idea - and he has seen this sort of thing in action
<walkerma>	It was also listed in our mandate, and is sort-of discussed in some of the offline-related proposals
<walkerma>	So I think we need to address it.
<Amgine>	Not that I'm not keen on the idea. Just that technologically it could get very messy.
<walkerma>	My personal opinion: It won't happen on a large scale next month, but it is a fantastic direction to move in. Since we're talking strategy, I think we should indicate that we want to support/encourage tech developments/tools that could deliver this - maybe by 2013-2015
<walkerma>	If it can't be done, so be it. But who would've thought 5 years ago you could get a $10 app for a phone that can identify what bird call you just heard in your garden!
<walkerma>	If the WMF can encourage projects of this sort, inventive people may come up with inventive solutions
<walkerma>	SJ thinks it will work through use of on-the-ground mentors & teachers who would coordinate the editing, and maybe moderate the content and maybe even upload it
<Amgine>	<nods>
<hejko_>	walkerma: yes some kind of proxy is certainly necessary
<walkerma>	As we found with article quality assessment on WP - the solution turned out to be mainly a human/organisational one, rather than the technical ones that had been worked on previously!
<hejko_>	i meant human proxy
<walkerma>	OK - should we close there?
<hejko_>	ok.
<hejko_>	next meeting on Tuesday?
<walkerma>	Yes
<hejko_>	ok, cu then. I'll check the proposal and may add some comments.
<Amgine>	<nods>
<walkerma>	I will try to sketch out no. 3 - hejko_, can you work with me on that? I will also redraft no. 4 from being a question into possibly a recommendation, but with the understanding that this group can veto it, as we only discussed the topics at one IRC
<walkerma>	(Amgine and I still need to work on rewriting no. 1, I know!) Lack of time....
<hejko_>	yes
<Amgine>	<nods!>
<walkerma>	Amgine: Can you do your survey? I'll try to send you some names tonight
<hejko_>	I'll work on http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations/Offline_3 based on the IRC log tomorrow
<Amgine>	I will try to get it up before the end of the day. No promises.
<Amgine>	Not even sure if we have the same version of limesurvey.
<walkerma>	And I think all of us should ask the people (on the periphery/too busy to join the task force) for their feedback on the recommendations
<walkerma>	On Tuesday, we can discuss that feedback, and also discuss the final wording of the recommendations
<walkerma>	Is that OK?
<Philippe|Wiki>	Sounds good to me :)
<walkerma>	Philippe: Any advice as we go into the final five days?
<walkerma>	OK, I need to dash over to the campus printers. Thanks for coming! Please check the wiki daily, and leave comments there