Office of Advocate missing

Good ideas can be implemented badly; and it may take many tries to get an Advocate project right. There seems to be an unfounded dislike of lawyers for Wiki. How is it that there are so many lawyers in the US? They must be doing something right. Surely no one wants to return to the era of personal revenge ala Hatfield and McCoys, but it seems we have a little of that in Wiki; and I suggest it stems from an absence of the Rule of law or in our case, rule of regulations. WE need a way to make existing regs work, and lawyers and a judiciary and constabulary (or their Wiki versions) are really needed. Imersion 15:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

That is a good point. Wikipedia prides itself on having central policies (NOR, NPoV, etc), but I have never seen anybody blocked for violating them, no matter how bad the transgression. On the other hand I have seen admins violating these central policies, more often than I like. There is no rule of law on Wikipedia, only interpersonal politics.

(Some things are acted against, such as overly flagrant copyright violations, but it is form which is being guarded, not content) - Brya 15:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Instead of rigorous discussion Wiki relies on consensus, and most of the time it works fine. However, a consensus of fools is still foolish. A consensus of well - intentioned, studious novices can reach workmanlike conclusions. But really, it takes some expertise adn a consensus of experts to produce high quality work; and they have to work at it, not just throw it away. Just as academia and the world of work is specialized, so shoudl Wiki strive to create specialists as well. There should be training programs; self assessment tools; and a whole blackboard of materials to help those who want to reach greater expertise. If they do, they should be rewarded with certificates and access to power tools commensurate with their higher status. This is not a simple process, but Wiki has reached a state of excellence where it is needed if continued high quality is the consensus need. I disagree with those who say the low hanging fruit has been harvested: there is still lots more; but for those areas that need sustained improvement and maintenance, a new system is, in my opionion, now needed.

For some topics consensus does work, especially where there are many who are knowledgable on the topic. For other topics it works poorly or not at all ("We hold this Truth to be the Consensus").

It is disappointing to see this argument crop up again, of Wikipedia as a society on its own, with a better breed of man, closed off from the Bad World Out There. Not the best encyclopedia that could be built, but the best encyclopedia that Wikipedians can build. Knowledge on specialized topics is not so easily gained, and it is pure arrogance to claim that Wikipedians are an exception. Isolationism (the Cult of the Amateur, which proves to lead to a real horror show, in not so few places).

Of course, it would be nice if Wikipedia could have self-assesment tools, which would help users realize what is their proper level. However, I cannot think of something that lends itself more to being gamed. - Brya 05:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Imersion, "lawyers and a judiciary and constabulary" you mention are abound in wikipedia. I am of poor English, and I am worried why my term "Advocate" is confused for "a lawyer". Wikipedia does not need no more no wikilawyers. In fact, "Wikilawyering" has become an insult. My point is that there are way much more than enough people ready to punish a new newcomer, but there seems no office to defend a newcomer, to shield a newcomer from the jungle of wikilaws and from oldtimers. I am sure the latter ones mean no personal harm. It is only they are overstressed and underpaid (wait, not paid at all :-) and have no time to babysit and babytalk a newbie when their pet article is about to be vandalized by an old seasoned pov-pusher. Actual implementation of Wikipedia's "Do not bite" policy requires waste of time on non-productive efforts, not directly related to contributing. It takes a good deal of elevation in the goal recognition to understand that allowing more hands would increase the overall productivity, although your personal productivity (in your favorite subject) will be set back.

Therefore my call was for looking for people who are good at helping others. Not just good at this, but feel good when doing this. (Just like most of wikipedians feel good when editing.) This is goal of my suggested Office of Advocate is: not for enforcing the rules nor training people to follow or circumnavigate the rules, but to help people.

I don't know (and lazy to learn) what went bad with the AMA I mentioned at the top, but I see what's wrong with the current "Mediation Cabal" in en: wikipedia. Many times I saw that a completely clueless person undertakes the role of a mediator. What is worse, recently I noticed a really disturbing case. One guy (call him 'client') requested a mediation. It sat in the queue for some time, and finally was accepted. Suddenly the 'client' notices that mediator's account was created 2 days ago! What do you think the 'client' was thinking? The same stumbling block is for Advocates.

An editor has an immediate and everlasting gratification (unless his contributions are deleted :-) The one who patrols newpages and stuff has a price of a police sorry, peace officer: Keep this garbage and vandal scum at bay. And this feeling of the power... But the work of an Advocate or Mediator, etc., seems to lack these sources of "goodfeel". In search of one, I may put forth the following suggestion:

In applications for the admin rights, the successful work of an Advocate must count favorably and highly. This work would readily demonstrate both hands-on experience with policies and human skills expected from an admin.

OK I think your suggestion for including helping advocacy as an important criterion for admin rights seesm like a just and good step. But I think you should not disdain training and self assessment as vehicles fro getting there either. Wikilawyering is such a pejorative term in wikipedia,that creating a judiciary and constabulary probably is impractical and beyond the bounds; but that itself seems a basic problem in wiki culture: it avoids thoughtful and human solutions in favor of hip, flippant kluges that are fundamentally flawed --- and so o o o (for instance) POV deletions trump incremental aggregations and improvements.

re: "a basic problem in wiki culture": deficiency of "thoughtful and human solutions" is a basic problem of anonymous online communication culture, observed way before the advent of 'internets', not to say wiki. the problem is lies in an inherent contradiction: "human solutions" cannot be implemented in a mechanical way: humans quickly screw them up or circumvent. The only solution is to change the humans themselves. And history show this is a long, gradual evolution, over generations. This evolution can only be guided, not prescribed.

Some complain here to the end that this wikimedia statement is but waving hands and preaching. Well, wikipedia has plenty of rules and processes already. That they not always work is because they are underused, misused and abused. Do we need the policies on how to use the policies? Do we need to have a rule on how to "discourage disruptive and hostile behavior, and repel trolls"? Well, I have a good one: block for failure to "repel trolls".

I guess I have too little experience with Wiki. I have encountered no trolls yet and have no idea what to do If I did; so I guess I do not know what you mean by failure to repel trolls. Please expalin, and is this a new thread or is t related to building advocates?

It was a joke. My point was that some commenters seem to expect from the 'Resolution:Openness' too much: they seem to have expected to see a ready-to-use recipe how to make everything OK, and make it right now. Well, the document must be read for what it is: a mission statement, a "new-year resolution". It must be taken on a personal level, not on bureaucratic level. Making rules less complicates or more complicated and then enforcing them is useless for advancement of this mission. An extreme case was communism. The ultimate goal was noble: to make all people equal, good, and happy. But to make it "fast and now" the solution was to kill all who was not equal, good, or happy, rather than to wait for people to gradually become good, equal and happy. While capitalism does not look ideal society, there is a vast difference between 19th century, with teenagers working 12 hours a day, and today. Just the same, I say, en: wikipedia has changed a lot in 10 years. And it will continue to change. And the goal of any mission statement is to nudge the course of change in right direction, rather to prescribe some rules and laws. Altenmann 19:54, 27 May 2011 (UTC)