IRC office hours/2009-09-29

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Topic changed to "Discussion of Wikimedia Foundation's Strategy Project | Roughly 1600 volunteers for task forces! | Translation fixes: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_participation/Appeal_letter" by Philippe|Busy.
[1:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: Well, it's technically time to start office hours, but I don't see a teeming crowd....if any of you have questions, shout 'em out. Otherwise, we can all just chill and say we had a meeting
[1:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: "chill" it is. I'm here for questions, pipe up any time. Otherwise, do whatever it is you do. And Natalie .... I really don't wanna know.
[1:04pm] jeblad joined the chat room.
[1:06pm] Keegan_: Heh, I'm working on the taskforce issue
[1:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: taskforce issue? That sounds serious.
[1:07pm] GerardM-_ joined the chat room.
[1:07pm] • Philippe|Wiki waves at GerardM-_
[1:07pm] Keegan_: From what I understand, the issue that strategy has is implementing changes
[1:07pm] jeblad: SWAT team!
[1:07pm] Keegan_: Because the wiki is built base up and takes no pleasure in top down orders
[1:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: I'm not sure I'm following, but go on
[1:07pm] GerardM-_ is now known as GerardM-.
[1:08pm] GerardM-: Hoi Philippe
[1:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: I dont know that I'd go so far as to say that there's an issue with implementing changes, because there haven't been any changes to implement yet
[1:08pm] Keegan_: It's hard to wander in and fix problems that people can't see because of their entrenchment
[1:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: I agree with that totally
[1:08pm] Keegan_: Good point
[1:08pm] GerardM-: I have an issue with Mr Kohs and I want your advisse
[1:08pm] Keegan_: The theory of how to make a change
[1:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gerard, happy to....
[1:09pm] • Keegan_ is just babbling and writing, y'all chat
[1:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: I'm curious to hear your stream of consciousness on this
[1:09pm] GerardM-: Mr Kohs claims that on the "Wikipedia speakers" list that he is an admin on Wikimedia labatories.
[1:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: Wikilabs? Anybody with a pulse can get +sysop there, right?
[1:09pm] GerardM-: exactly
[1:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: Seems a bit like misrepresentation to me, but <shrug>
[1:10pm] GerardM-: now, given that he is unashamadly selfpromoting and given that I had some nastygram from him
[1:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: Only project with lower sysop rules than sstrategy
[1:10pm] kim_bruning joined the chat room.
[1:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning! Hi
[1:11pm] kim_bruning: Hello!
[1:11pm] GerardM-: I think this is all together sufficient to ban Mr Kohs
[1:11pm] kim_bruning: what can I do for you today?
[1:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: not based on that alone, no.
[1:11pm] Keegan_: Philippe, I still aim to give you a holla for this stream of thought, it's more difficult to type than say
[1:11pm] GerardM-: AGF does not apply for him
[1:11pm] Keegan_: Maybe this evening
[1:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: I look forward to that.
[1:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: this doesn't strike me as disruptive enough to justify a ban.
[1:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: and I set that bar pretty low.
[1:12pm] Church_of_emacs joined the chat room.
[1:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hey emacs
[1:12pm] kim_bruning: is there a pattern of disruption that might justify a community ban?
[1:12pm] lyzzy: hi Church_of_emacs
[1:12pm] • kim_bruning waves to Church_of_emacs .... ARRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrr!
[1:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: it's Kohs
[1:12pm] GerardM-: Mr Kohs is just banned from en,wp for forever
[1:12pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, does that count as a yes or a no?
[1:12pm] Church_of_emacs: hi lyzzy
[1:12pm] GerardM-: by the arbcomm
[1:12pm] Church_of_emacs: Hi Kim!!
[1:13pm] kim_bruning: lyzzy, is your nick related to xyzzy?
[1:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: depends on who you talk to. I banned him from strategy.
[1:13pm] lyzzy: kim_bruning: I think about renaming
[1:13pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, Who else is banned from strategy?
[1:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: Kohs
[1:13pm] kim_bruning: lyzzy, how so? it's a cool name!
[1:13pm] lyzzy: the question comes up too often
[1:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: He's welcome to participate in teh process, but not on the wiki.
[1:13pm] kim_bruning: lyzzy, you have a magical name!
[1:14pm] kim_bruning:
[1:14pm] lyzzy: I *am* magical
[1:14pm] • kim_bruning resists the urge to ask whether lyzzy can teleport too
[1:15pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, what did he do?
[1:15pm] • kim_bruning wonders briefly
[1:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: disruptive trolling.
[1:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: Set up a couple of proposals that were designed to inflame with no redeeming value.
[1:15pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki,
[1:15pm] delphine joined the chat room.
[1:15pm] kim_bruning: Kay
[1:15pm] kim_bruning: bonjour delphine!
[1:15pm] • Philippe|Wiki hugs delphine
[1:16pm] • delphine hugs Philippe|Wiki
[1:16pm] delphine: it's always weird to hug a half-wiki, half Philippe
[1:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: Getting your arms around the wiki.....
[1:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: that's the problem.
[1:16pm] kim_bruning: the wiki part is a bit prickly?
[1:17pm] Philippe|Wiki: well, a bit undefined
[1:17pm] • kim_bruning thinks in analogy to beards
[1:17pm] • Keegan_ is regrowing his beard
[1:17pm] Keegan_: It's at the itch stage, ugh
[1:17pm] • Philippe|Wiki is too lazy to shave
[1:18pm] lyzzy: bonsoir delphine
[1:18pm] delphine: hallo lyzzy
[1:18pm] delphine: Philippe|Wiki: you got my email?
[1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: delphine, I did, thank you. I have neglected to respond yet, but its in my box of things to respond to when I can give more than three word answers
[1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: People I like, get paragraphs. Natalie gets single words.
[1:19pm] delphine: ouch
[1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, twice I've taunted her, and nothing
[1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: NOTHING
[1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: she must be away
[1:19pm] Keegan_: Natalie also can't focus long enough to read a paragraph
[1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: true story
[1:20pm] • delphine ducks the trouts flying in the room
[1:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: they're just little ones.
[1:20pm] delphine: poor fishes
[1:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: not it. notafish.
[1:21pm] kim_bruning: not a big fish anyway
[1:21pm] • kim_bruning ducks
[1:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: So, just so that we can write this all off on our taxes... i'll give a quickie strategy report. 1600 applications rec'd for task forces. Task force design proceeding with the design of the emerging strategic priorities. Philippe has gummy worms, and all is well with the world.
[1:22pm] Keegan_: 1600, wow
[1:22pm] Keegan_: What task forces?
[1:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_forces has the list
[1:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: But there will be task forces around reach, content, and community
[1:22pm] Keegan_: Like I visit that wiki
[1:23pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, we need a strategy to replace brion... bigger, and better
[1:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: with a few sub-task forces for very speciialized things (like tech issues)
[1:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: I'm bigger than Brion. Or I was, until this diet.
[1:23pm] Keegan_: brion 2.0
[1:23pm] • kim_bruning is actually scratching my head about that. What organisation model can we use?
[1:23pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, you weren't THAT big, last time I saw you
[1:23pm] kim_bruning: you're fine
[1:23pm] Keegan_: kim_bruning: That's what I'm working on
[1:24pm] kim_bruning: Keegan_, you're building a robot to replace him?
[1:24pm] Keegan_: Yes
[1:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: that's an intersting question to think about, isn't it? The model of a developing organization is very different from that of a sustaining one.
[1:24pm] Keegan_: Mainly made of cats
[1:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: i like cats.
[1:25pm] Keegan_: More difficult: Building a top down structure into a bottom to top structure
[1:25pm] Church_of_emacs: Proposal:Create_an_infinite_number_of_brion_clones is obsolete now, right?
[1:25pm] Keegan_: RfC v ArbCom, to use an en.wiki example
[1:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: Church_of_emacs: it can be deprecated, yep
[1:25pm] kim_bruning: Keegan_, you're making a cat-herder out of cats?
[1:25pm] Keegan_: Cats can be herded
[1:25pm] Keegan_: All it takes is food
[1:25pm] kim_bruning: Church_of_emacs, we don't have the clones yet!
[1:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: We have til December to get them, kim_bruning
[1:26pm] Church_of_emacs: kim_bruning, that's why it's just a proposal
[1:26pm] Keegan_: I'm still for Pornopedia
[1:26pm] Keegan_: That wiki is a mess
[1:26pm] Keegan_: It really needs our help
[1:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: Needs strategy.
[1:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: Personally, i'm fond of Uncyclopedia's takeover attempt
[1:27pm] Dedalus_ joined the chat room.
[1:27pm] kim_bruning: pornopedia is not well maintained yet
[1:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: I also like the one that I saw today that ended with Wikis ruling the world.
[1:27pm] kim_bruning: we need CC content!
[1:27pm] Dedalus_: hi all
[1:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: hi Dedalus_
[1:28pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, I think Herr Moeller is a big fan of the latter scenario
[1:28pm] kim_bruning:
[1:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: frankly, i'm not opposed to ruling the world either. after all, who can do it with more panache than the thirty of us in this channel?
[1:30pm] kim_bruning: I was thinking of using wikis and consensus to rule the world
[1:30pm] • kim_bruning glares at the evil dictator
[1:30pm] kim_bruning:
[1:30pm] Philippe|Wiki: My way's better.
[1:31pm] kim_bruning: so everyone tells me
[1:31pm] kim_bruning: as in "my way's better"
[1:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: better for me anyway
[1:31pm] Church_of_emacs: Keegan_, a few days ago at RegioWikiCamp some guys introduced themselves as maintainers of "Breastwiki". It took a while for me to realize they were refering to the city of Brest...
[1:32pm] kim_bruning: not so much "Philippe's way is better"
[1:32pm] Dedalus_: Has there been any proposal submitted in the past week worthwhile to look at now?
[1:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: that's just because they haven't taken the time to get to know me.
[1:32pm] Keegan_: Hahhaha
[1:32pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, Maybe Mr. Kim would say that
[1:32pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, that is quite possible!
[1:32pm] kim_bruning:
[1:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: I'lll be honest, I haven't looked at the proposals closely since we started getting applications for task forces in.
[1:32pm] kim_bruning: I'm a bit worried about the task forces
[1:33pm] kim_bruning: But not *too* worried
[1:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: why?
[1:33pm] kim_bruning: well, let's put it this way. In the past, the wiki would blow right past any task force you could envision
[1:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: Might happen.
[1:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: Doesn't mean we shouldn't try though.
[1:33pm] kim_bruning: what with the number of skilled wiki-ers dropping, that chance has gone down considerably
[1:34pm] kim_bruning: I'm not sure what part of that story if good or bad
[1:34pm] kim_bruning: s/if/is/
[1:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: well, my fairly standard response to that is: "quantity =/- quality"
[1:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: =/=
[1:34pm] kim_bruning: a proposal "do something about acculturation" is a tad ... vague...
[1:35pm] kim_bruning: so I haven't done that yet
[1:35pm] kim_bruning: it'd be cool to have a task force working on "making it so the wiki can blow past any task force"
[1:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: Remember that the chances of us implementing ANY of the proposals exactly as written are slim to none.
[1:35pm] • kim_bruning scratches head
[1:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: More likely, those proposals will serve as a guide for the task forces to engage in discussion
[1:35pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, due to the whole plan makes contact with reality thing?
[1:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: that's part of it. Another part of it is wiki-culture: since when do we accept a first draft of ANYTHING?
[1:36pm] Dedalus_: let's do the analysis first http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Complete_Strategic_Analysis_of_Wikimedia which is categorized as english
[1:36pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, Too true!
[1:36pm] Dedalus_: sadly the complete analysis is in Spanish
[1:36pm] • Philippe|Wiki poitns Dedalus_ toward the fact base, the starting point of that analysis
[1:37pm] Dedalus_: more sadly the analysis isn't complete
[1:37pm] kim_bruning: Dedalus_, no ablo espanol?
[1:37pm] kim_bruning: Dedalus_, Template:Sofixit?
[1:37pm] Dedalus_: vamos a la playa
[1:37pm] Dedalus_: ... so much for my Spanish
[1:38pm] • Philippe|Wiki eats a gummy worm
[1:39pm] kim_bruning: Dedalus_, do your own analysis?
[1:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: better yet, work with Bridgespan and build on theirs.
[1:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: you know, like a wiki?
[1:39pm] Dedalus_: kim_bruning: great idea ... actually I was browsing the list of new proposal ... and came across the complete analysis I couldn't read ...
[1:40pm] • lyzzy is curious about the gummy worm diet
[1:40pm] Dedalus_: bridgespan can probably build on my analysis
[1:40pm] Philippe|Wiki: lyzzy well, they're not on my diet.
[1:40pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: I'm not interested in who builds on who I'm interested in getting to the end result, however we get there.
[1:41pm] Dedalus_: and, what is the end result supposed to be, except for world domination?
[1:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: what do you mean "except for"? That's always been my end result
[1:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: I don't know, let me ask you the same question: what is the end result of a complete analysis?
[1:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: What does that look like to you?
[1:42pm] Dedalus_: http://twitter.com/vkoblenko/status/4473981930
[1:42pm] Dedalus_: o that link doesn't answer your question Philippe|Wiki
[1:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, she didn't look data-driven
[1:43pm] Dedalus_: the end result is that nobody is interested in the analysis or its results
[1:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: I beg to differ
[1:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm interested in the analysis. So is the Board, that's why they required that this project be data driven
[1:44pm] Juandev is now known as Juandev_zzzzz.
[1:44pm] Dedalus_: ... wow ... data driven ... where can i eat data?
[1:44pm] Dedalus_: I thought the process was meant to be bottoms up ...
[1:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hmmm, see there's a definition of terms issue there.
[1:45pm] kim_bruning: Dedalus_, foto is overbodig? Tjeemich. I guess it's not just enwiki that's toxic. And it's taking her months? WTF?
[1:45pm] kim_bruning: that's a list of things that are Not Good
[1:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: The process is meant to be community informed; community guided.... but not necessarily bottom up, because the Foundation engaged a consulting firm and two paid staff members, who work in a horizontal to the process.
[1:46pm] Juandev_zzzzz left the chat room. ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net")
[1:47pm] Philippe|Wiki: I just received a telephone call that I have a delivery here in about three minutes, so if I stop responding for a moment, I'll be back....
[1:47pm] Philippe|Wiki: it's not that I choked on a gummy worm
[1:47pm] Philippe|Wiki: (great, now i really will choke on a gummy worm and nobody will call the ambulance)
[1:47pm] Dedalus_: delivery sounds like midwifery
[1:47pm] Philippe|Wiki: how did you know?
[1:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: brb
[1:48pm] Amgine: great. I missed the office hours...
[1:49pm] kim_bruning: hola Amgine
[1:50pm] Amgine: <waves>
[1:50pm] • kim_bruning TOTALLY waves back
[1:51pm] kim_bruning: (wave.google.com ... got an account yet? )
[1:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: my apologies, ladies, gentlemen, and Natalie
[1:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: i'm back
[1:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: i wasn't aware that wave was active yet?
[1:52pm] kim_bruning: there
[1:52pm] Dedalus_: Philippe|Wiki: you don't have an account? get another jelly bean!
[1:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: hello Amgine, I didn't see you enter
[1:52pm] kim_bruning: s going to be a big thing tomorrow or so
[1:53pm] kim_bruning: about letting 100Kpeople on
[1:53pm] Amgine: <waves> I pulled in, oh, last night or so.
[1:53pm] gopher65: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Make_the_editing_of_the_articles_more_easy
[1:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: cool, i just filled out their little form
[1:53pm] Amgine: Was looking ahead for this conversation.
[1:53pm] kim_bruning: wik-ed
[1:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine: well, you werne't late
[1:53pm] gopher65: That's actually an interesting proposal, once you get around the broken engrish
[1:53pm] Dedalus_: hi Amgine
[1:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: Broken english is an easy fix.
[1:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: That's why God made wikis.
[1:53pm] gopher65: They want template type pages created for various topics
[1:54pm] gopher65: that will give new people an idea on how to create new pages
[1:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: hmmm, interesting... templates as a default entry system with the ability to break out....
[1:54pm] gopher65: (Kind of like MSWord wizards, I'd imagine)
[1:54pm] Keegan_: Yes, because templates are always the solution
[1:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: intriguing
[1:54pm] Amgine: Philippe|Wiki: See en.Wiktionary.
[1:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: they can be a powerful tool to getting past initial barriers to entry
[1:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: But they shouldn't be long term solutions
[1:55pm] Keegan_: I won't argue with you on that point, instead I will chose to hate you on that point
[1:55pm] gopher65: Right. I like wikicode, but it's a huge barrier to entry. I'd never (for instance) get my mom to edit wikipedia, because she'd just freak at the code
[1:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: you join a long line of distinguished individuals
[1:55pm] • Keegan_ queues up
[1:55pm] gopher65: But she can handle wizards... with difficulty... if they're easy:P.
[1:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher65: my partner is very happy to type all day long... but he won't use wikicode
[1:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: He will, however, use a GUI
[1:56pm] gopher65: Amgine, what was that site that you showed me that had the god-awful userpages with horrible wikicode all over them?
[1:56pm] gopher65: Whatever it was, I don't want a system like that:P
[1:56pm] Amgine: WikiHow.
[1:56pm] kim_bruning: gopher65, well, mediawikiwave might be handy then
[1:56pm] gopher65: Ah, right
[1:56pm] kim_bruning: though it's going to need further work
[1:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: oh yeah, wikihow has dreadful userpages.
[1:57pm] Amgine: Yes, I was just going to mention how much I hate that site's method of doing user pages.
[1:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: wave is shiny. it will be interesting to see it work.
[1:57pm] gopher65: If something like that were ever implemented, I'd want the wizard (or template, or whatever) to insert proper, well formated wikicode.
[1:57pm] Amgine: <mine has a big notice at the top PLEASE DON'T...>
[1:58pm] Amgine: The problem is, eventually overtemplatification becomes a barrier to editing as well.
[1:58pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, Are you punning with the "shiny" thing?
[1:58pm] kim_bruning: there's at least 2 puns to be made
[1:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: Absolutely, Amgine.
[1:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: And yes, kim
[1:58pm] Amgine: Either full-time wysiwyg editor, or syntax editing.
[1:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: i wondered who would follow that
[1:58pm] Dedalus_: the interview with Mitch Kapor was an interesting read on that point ...
[1:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: I haven't read it yet
[1:58pm] kim_bruning: Philippe|Wiki, you can count on me!
[1:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: could you summarize it?
[1:59pm] kim_bruning: "shiny" is actually getting a negative connotation due to the wavesandbox
[1:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: (see how I made someone else do the work for me?
[1:59pm] kim_bruning: it goes "everything's shiny captain, not to fret" , when it crashes...
[2:00pm] kim_bruning: so people call that "wave had a shiny"
[2:00pm] kim_bruning:
[2:00pm] Dedalus_: Kapor argues for having wysiwig ... just spend 50M to 100M on it to get it done ...
[2:00pm] kim_bruning: it has lots of shinys
[2:00pm] kim_bruning:
[2:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: wow... 50M to 100M?!?
[2:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: That's .... ambitious
[2:00pm] kim_bruning: Dedalus_, google spent 10K or so
[2:00pm] kim_bruning: we'll get most of it done
[2:00pm] Dedalus_: Kapor says WMF is understaffed ...
[2:00pm] kim_bruning: Dedalus_, Kapor is prolly right about THAT part
[2:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: did he mention in which areas? i'm gonna need a job in 12 months
[2:01pm] Amgine: It's not understaffed for its budget, which brings strategy back round to "how do we get more money?"
[2:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: ay, there's the rub.
[2:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: Luckily, we have some enormously talented fundraisers.
[2:01pm] Amgine: <hands them pistols> Works better, faster.
[2:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: and i dont say that because i am kissin Rand's rear... I say it as someone who has done fundraising professionally and really admires the work they do
[2:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: But if someone wanted to tell randmontoya that I said nice things and he should have his wife send baked goods....
[2:02pm] Dedalus_: yes ... I had to check my sources ... Kapor http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/strategy/8/86/WMF_Advisory_Board_Kapor.pdf proposes 50 to 100 jobs for developers ... (hi kim_bruning )
[2:03pm] randmontoya: huh wut?!
[2:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: lol
[2:03pm] randmontoya: oh, that's true
[2:03pm] randmontoya: my wife is awesomefire in the kitchen
[2:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: rand, i was bragging on our fundraising staff. and demanding treats in return.
[2:03pm] randmontoya: that's the usual payment, of course
[2:03pm] Dedalus_: randmontoya: the goal for the fundraiser has changed ...
[2:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: absolutely. a dozen cookies is standard, I believe.
[2:04pm] randmontoya: Dedalus_, we are still working on what part of our budget the fundraiser is going to cover.
[2:04pm] Dedalus_: ... somebody put a proposal up for 50M to 100M ... needs some funding
[2:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: That's gonna cross multiple task forces. I fear it.
[2:04pm] gopher65: Pfffft. That's easy. We just need to bribe a city work crew
[2:05pm] gopher65: They could then install a bipass in the sewer system
[2:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: you have me curious, i just opened Kapor's interview
[2:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll read it after
[2:05pm] kim_bruning: I think we won't get TOO much funding this year, unless I'm mistaken
[2:05pm] • kim_bruning is guessing a lot there
[2:05pm] gopher65: near Bill Gates' house. We could then build a sifting machine that would sift the 100 dollar bills that he uses as toilet paper out from the crap, and we'd have all the money we could ever want!
[2:05pm] Amgine: TANSTA "too much funding"....
[2:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher, that is the crappiest idea i have ever heard.
[2:06pm] gopher65:
[2:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: ba-dum CHING
[2:08pm] Amgine: Anyway.... stepping away from fundraising as strategy... what is the current push in Strategy project?
[2:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hmm, Dedalus_ : I don't read it as Mitch saying the Foundation is understaffed
[2:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: I see it as him saying it COULD be bigger without being "too big"
[2:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: subtle different
[2:08pm] Dedalus_: I read "Right now, there is a serious underinvestment in technology and development;"
[2:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine - the current push is on fleshing out the emerging strategic priorities and setting up task forces.
[2:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: underinvestment doesn't necessarily mean employees, but it could, I agree.
[2:09pm] Dedalus_: and of course the literal Kapor quote "Wikimedia Foundation is understaffed"
[2:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: Actually, I'm glad Amgine asked that because it gives me another chance to say this:
[2:09pm] Dedalus_: sounds like a dent ...
[2:10pm] gopher65: Arthur Dent?
[2:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: once the task forces are set up they will all be given a mandate and a set of deliverables for which they are responsible....
[2:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: then they will specifically NOT go in some back room and work... rather they will work out in the open, on wiki, with the assistance and company of anyone who wants.
[2:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Just because someone is not specifically invited to sit on a task force does NOT mean they can't fully engage in that task force.
[2:11pm] Dedalus_: gopher65: on twitter you tweet, on identi.ca you dent
[2:11pm] GerardM-: Phillipe at the time I said that not much would happen because of a lack of resources ...this is likely to happen unless people who are in a taks force organise themselves and make things happen
[2:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: So pick one out, go engage, and have fun.
[2:11pm] gopher65: Ah. I don't really use either of those. I think I have an identi account somewhere...
[2:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: we hope they will organize themselves and make things happen.
[2:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: And we hope that "make things happen" includes the involvement of people who weren't "assinged" to the task force
[2:12pm] Amgine: (http://identi.ca/amgine/)
[2:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: We also hope that task forces spring up that we didn't plan for or count on.
[2:14pm] Dedalus_: GerardM-: Wikimedia Nederland is going to spend money in 2010: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bestedingsplan_2010
[2:15pm] Amgine: Isn't the concept "group of people organizing to push a task force to accomplish X" a model of POV pushing?
[2:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: Sure. Isn't strategic plannning?
[2:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: They can organize and make their case. Anyone can.
[2:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: Doesn't mean that the community will accept their case or that it will make it in to the plan.
[2:17pm] Amgine: Remind me to mention that to anti-abortionists or Israeli settlers.
[2:18pm] Dedalus_: on the Dutch Wikipedia there is some on wiki canvassing against people meeting off wiki and discussing off wiki stuff and coalescing against on wiki people ...
[2:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: If, though, you are asking whether those self-organized task forces are likely to be more partisan than Foundation organized ones with a mandate determined by the Foundation - yes, you're right. They probably will.
[2:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: But in the end it will be evaluated through the same lens as the others.
[2:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: And I have an enormous faith in the integrity of our community.... including pushing partisans into examining all sides
[2:19pm] Amgine: I'm probably more concerned about the evaluating lens than the organizing.
[2:19pm] Amgine: But then, I'm sort of trained to be skeptical.
[2:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, I can undersatnd that. There's naturally some concern about a part of the process that isnt designed yet
[2:20pm] kim_bruning: The rule is that what happens off-wiki doesn't happen
[2:20pm] kim_bruning: it only happens once you are on-wiki
[2:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: We don't know who's going to be doing the evaluating yet. Honestly, we're hoping to get community input into that.
[2:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: But we do know that the Board of Trustees will have a serious role in it, since they intiated the process.
[2:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: kim_bruning: agreed. that's why we're requiring task forces to work transparently and on-wiki
[2:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: they may elect to use other tools as well - but they must use the wiki at minimum
[2:22pm] lyzzy: Dedalus_: what does "besteding" mean?
[2:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: With that, folks, I need to take off and work on some task force stuff before I call it a day.
[2:23pm] Dedalus_: lyzzy besteding=where money is spent on
[2:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: If you have any questions for me, my IM is always on.... philippebeaudette at gmail.com or philippebeaudett <---- AIM
[2:24pm] lyzzy: have a successful day Philippe|Wiki
[2:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: thanks, lyzzy
[2:24pm] kim_bruning: lyzzy, expenditure
[2:24pm] Philippe|Wiki left the chat room.