IRC office hours/2009-10-13

    From Strategic Planning

    You changed the topic to "Discussion of Wikimedia Foundation's Strategy Project | LiquidThreads is deployed on strategy wiki! | Translation updates:".

    [2:50pm] eekim joined the chat room.
    [2:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hey eekim
    [2:51pm] eekim: hi philippe. hi all.
    [2:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: 'tis a quiet channel so far
    [2:52pm] mpeel left the chat room.
    [2:55pm] Dedalus_: alo Philippe|Wiki
    [2:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hello Dedalus_
    [2:55pm] Dedalus_: you're still looking for applications aren't you?
    [2:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: We are, but they need to get in fairly quickly, because the selection committee is doing their work right now
    [2:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: is the link
    [2:57pm] Dedalus_: do you know what should be behind the semicolon in
    [2:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: So far the only thing that has been communicated is what I put in the template, which is 1
    [2:59pm] Dedalus_: my experimenting shows so far anything goes ... 1, 2, 'undocumented feature', 0 it shows all the same ...
    [3:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: I don't see the point of the experimentation. At this point, Werdna has given us the variable to use, so that's the one I'm going to use
    [3:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: There may be other back-side features that are affected by that variable.
    [3:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: so until he gives other instruction, I think we're best to stay with the format he's given us.
    [3:00pm] eekim: dedalus, it's worth posting those questions to the LiquidThreads lab page
    [3:01pm] eekim: i know werdna's monitoring that closely
    [3:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: He already did
    [3:01pm] eekim: oh, okay, forget what i just said, then
    [3:01pm] • gopher65 does *not* like liquid threads
    [3:01pm] eekim: what don't you like?
    [3:01pm] gopher65: It's ugly as hell, and it to all intents and purposes prevents the use of wikicode
    [3:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher65: I'm sorry to hear that I know Werdna would apprecaite the feedback if you can lay out exactly what you dislike.
    [3:02pm] gopher65: It looks like it was copied straight from... wikihow?
    [3:02pm] eekim: the ui needs improvement... and i expect it will
    [3:02pm] eekim: what do you mean about preventing the use of wikicode?
    [3:02pm] gopher65: If we're going to go with a route like that, my requirements are this:
    [3:02pm] brassratgirl_ joined the chat room.
    [3:02pm] gopher65: 1) That it be a WYSIWYG editor (pretty basic requirement)
    [3:02pm] eekim: hey phoebe!
    [3:02pm] brassratgirl_: yo!
    [3:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher, you'd be amazed at how much disagreement there is on the WYSIWYG issue Personally, I'd like it too, though.
    [3:03pm] brassratgirl_: eekim: feeling rained out yet?
    [3:03pm] eekim: it's nice and cozy here right now
    [3:03pm] gopher65: 2) That instead of inserting screwed up, ugly code into the talk page, it inserts properly formated, person-readable wikicode
    [3:03pm] eekim: i love the rain... a few days a year
    [3:03pm] gopher65: I've never seen a thread system that would meet requirement number 2
    [3:03pm] gopher65: And this one is no different
    [3:03pm] aude: hey!
    [3:04pm] eekim: hi katie!
    [3:04pm] eekim: gopher65, i'm stlil confused about 2
    [3:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher, i'm not sure what you mean by that? can you give a "for instance"?
    [3:04pm] lyzzy joined the chat room.
    [3:04pm] eekim: hey lyzzy!
    [3:04pm] Dedalus_: what i notice is that the recent changes page gets flooded with messages
    [3:04pm] • Keegan_ was attempting to catch a cat nap
    [3:05pm] lyzzy: hi eekim and all
    [3:05pm] • Natalie farts.
    [3:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus, recent changes gets a message for... you know... every change?
    [3:05pm] eekim: ah, our head cheerleader
    [3:05pm] gopher65: one sec
    [3:05pm] eekim: hi Natalie. sorry to miss you while i was in DC
    [3:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie has pep.
    [3:05pm] Natalie: Yes, that was a shame.
    [3:06pm] gopher65: Here is an example of something that looks similar to how liquidthreads looks:
    [3:06pm] gopher65:
    [3:06pm] gopher65: (that's a wikihow talk page, please don't edit it;)
    [3:06pm] gopher65: )
    [3:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gopher, have you looked at LiquidThreads today?
    [3:07pm] Natalie: Huh?
    [3:07pm] gopher65: not today, no
    [3:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: You might wanna
    [3:07pm] Natalie: LiquidThreads doesn't resemble that at all...
    [3:07pm] gopher65: It did last time I looked at it:P
    [3:07pm] gopher65: screwed up code inserted onto the talk pages
    [3:07pm] eekim: liquidthreads uses its own tables. it doesn't write to the Talk Page
    [3:07pm] Natalie: Also, I don't understand why strategy.wm.o is the new test.wk.o
    [3:07pm] gopher65: oh gods... that's even worse...
    [3:07pm] Natalie: No it doesn't?
    [3:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: No, it writes to pages, yes?
    [3:08pm] tgr: gopher65, maybe you are thinking of Wikiversity's threaded template system?
    [3:08pm] Natalie: It uses the revision and page table, as far as I'm aware.
    [3:08pm] eekim: sorry, my bad
    [3:08pm] eekim: you're right: content is captured in the Thread namespace
    [3:08pm] Gebruiker joined the chat room.
    [3:09pm] Natalie: Right.
    [3:09pm] tgr:
    [3:09pm] eekim: Natalie, are you also a LiquidThreads detractor?
    [3:09pm] Gebruiker: Philippe|Wiki ... I wrote about numbers itn hte light of the strategy projects
    [3:09pm] eekim: or are you concerned about stability on strategy?
    [3:09pm] Gebruiker: I think you will like it
    [3:09pm] tgr: that was indeed quite horrible
    [3:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gebruiker: I was pleased to see that, yes. I look forward to it.
    [3:09pm] Natalie: eekim: I just find it curious that strategy.wm.o is using a lot of beta software.
    [3:10pm] Gebruiker:
    [3:10pm] Gebruiker: I just published it ... you already read it ??
    [3:10pm] eekim: yup, we're definitely pushing the edge
    [3:10pm] Natalie: I could understand using it or labs or usability.
    [3:10pm] • Keegan_ duck taps Natalie's fingers
    [3:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gebruiker: My mistake, I was thinking about something else entirely.
    [3:10pm] Keegan_: *tapes
    [3:10pm] • Natalie farts again.
    [3:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: I just pulled that up and will read it shortly
    [3:10pm] gopher65:
    [3:10pm] gopher65: That's an example of wikithreads, yes?
    [3:11pm] Natalie: gopher65: Yes.
    [3:11pm] Natalie: Err, that URL is wrong.
    [3:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gopher - go check out village pump on strategy if you'd like.
    [3:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: it's got it
    [3:11pm] Natalie:
    [3:11pm] Gebruiker: Philippe|Wiki: I take it that autocomplete did not work well ?
    [3:11pm] gopher65: One of my requirements is that I have the ability to go in and be able to manually edit the entire talk page
    [3:11pm] gopher65: using wikicode, like I can now
    [3:11pm] eekim: hi Gebruiker
    [3:12pm] Natalie: gopher65: That's not how any forum works.
    [3:12pm] gopher65: Talk pages aren't a forum:P
    [3:12pm] Natalie: Yes they are.
    [3:12pm] peteforsyth joined the chat room.
    [3:12pm] gopher65: ....since when?
    [3:12pm] eekim: gopher65: how would you do that without running into the ugly markup issue you cited before?
    [3:12pm] Natalie: They've always been a forum for discussion.
    [3:12pm] gopher65: They're a message board
    [3:12pm] gopher65: Not a forum
    [3:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gerard, I'm pleased to see that blog post!
    [3:12pm] gopher65: Forums are something completely different
    [3:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: That makes me very happy, Gerard.
    [3:13pm] Natalie: gopher65: What's the distinction in your mind?
    [3:13pm] mpeel joined the chat room.
    [3:13pm] brassratgirl_: hey, speaking of forums
    [3:13pm] Natalie: eekim: My notes on LiquidThreads are here:
    [3:13pm] gopher65: eekim: Basically, the WYSIWYG editor would have to convert everything into standard code, like what you'd see on a talk page right now
    [3:13pm] brassratgirl_: did anyone see my suggestion to have a to-do list somewhere on the strategy wiki?
    [3:13pm] gopher65: so it would convert everything into something liek this:
    [3:13pm] gopher65: ==Hia!==
    [3:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: I saw it. I'm working on it today
    [3:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: I should have said so.
    [3:14pm] eekim: brassratgirl, yes. i think it's a good idea
    [3:14pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki - sweet
    [3:14pm] brassratgirl_: need help?
    [3:14pm] eekim: we had one at one point
    [3:14pm] Natalie: Yes, needs more strategy. More lists.
    [3:14pm] gopher65: Saw your neat looking article!
    [3:14pm] eekim: Issues
    [3:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: I have never, never, never turned down free help
    [3:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: eekim, pheobe's suggestion wasn't like our wiki issues page, exactly....
    [3:15pm] eekim: we had two issues pages
    [3:15pm] eekim: one was wiki-specific, another was more general
    [3:15pm] Natalie: Yes. You all have lots of issues.
    [3:15pm] eekim: the latter could be repurposed
    [3:15pm] Gebruiker: Philippe|Wiki: the changes in those stats were profound ... I can now understand things much better
    [3:15pm] Philippe|Wiki:
    [3:15pm] brassratgirl_: eekim: link?
    [3:15pm] Natalie: Archive 3? Lawl.
    [3:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: And yeah, eekim I forgot about the other one.
    [3:15pm] brassratgirl_: Natalie: I specialize in issues
    [3:15pm] Gebruiker: the question is, to what extend will other potentials be considered to be relevant
    [3:16pm] • Natalie debates the nature of meta namespaces and whether the village pump belongs in one.
    [3:16pm] eekim: gopher65: WYSIWYG is integral in what you're proposing. i think liquidthreads is a good interim experiment.
    [3:16pm] cary joined the chat room.
    [3:16pm] eekim: WYSIWYG = giant can of worms
    [3:16pm] Gebruiker: for instance Hausa is a language with hardly any articles no localisations ... it is one of the 50 biggest languages in the world when you consider native speakers
    [3:16pm] eekim: a can worth experimenting with, though
    [3:16pm] gopher65: What I want would be substantially easier than what they're implementing right now:P
    [3:16pm] Natalie: I don't think everyone in this room understands what a WYSIWYG editor is.
    [3:16pm] eekim: you're welcome to prove them wrong, gopher65
    [3:17pm] Gebruiker: Swahili is one of the biggest languages when you include second language speakers
    [3:17pm] gopher65: <---- not much of a coder
    [3:17pm] Gebruiker: AND it is a fast growing project
    [3:17pm] Philippe|Wiki: Indeed, Gerard; the use of Erik's stats will be very important to demonstrating that sort of thing
    [3:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: would you like to expand on your comment about WYSIWYG?
    [3:18pm] brassratgirl_: those new stats are hot, I have to say
    [3:18pm] peteforsyth: scratching head...I see people talking to gerard, but don't see him here -- ?
    [3:18pm] tgr: user 1 moves a thread to another page
    [3:18pm] tgr: user 2 changes rest of the page
    [3:18pm] eekim: brassratgirl:
    [3:18pm] tgr: user 3 rolls back user 1
    [3:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: pete.... Gebruiker is gerard
    [3:18pm] eekim: hi pete
    [3:19pm] Gebruiker: As to WYSIWYG The Wave interface does practically all the things you are considering
    [3:19pm] peteforsyth: ah. would it be OK to address him as Gebruiker so we can all follow along?
    [3:19pm] Gebruiker is now known as GerardM-.
    [3:19pm] tgr: now that would be fun for the parser to manage in a free-form LQT implementation
    [3:19pm] peteforsyth: Hi eekim
    [3:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: peteforsyth: you want consistency? organization? you ask the world, don't you?
    [3:19pm] GerardM-: I am behind another system ... did not notice
    [3:19pm] peteforsyth: Philippe|Wiki: why yes, I do
    [3:20pm] brassratgirl_: whoa! re: liquid threads, where do the "messages on other talk pages" come from? Are those pages on your watch list, or soemthing else?
    [3:20pm] peteforsyth: I dare to imagine a world where the sum of human knowledge is freely accessible to want less idealism?
    [3:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: I think they're watchlisted pages that are using LiquidThreads
    [3:20pm] GerardM-: peteforsyth: not in my lifetime ...
    [3:20pm] peteforsyth: thx GerardM
    [3:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: peteforsyth: it's a good dream. I just don't like typing Gebruiker.
    [3:21pm] GerardM-: Gebruiker means User in Dutch
    [3:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: Learn something new every day
    [3:21pm] peteforsyth: heh. OK, I am satisfied on this...sorry for the distraction...
    [3:21pm] gopher65: I'd rather not have plans with the title make-your-own-cold-fusion-warheads or any such thing floating around, freely available to everyone, but that's just me
    [3:21pm] tgr: brassratgirl_, you can watchlist both whole pages and separate threads
    [3:21pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki: makes sense, though it doesn't actually have the page title (just the links)
    [3:21pm] brassratgirl_: tgr: thanks
    [3:21pm] eekim: Natalie: I agree with many of your LiquidThread issues
    [3:22pm] tgr: latter happens automatically when you post to a thread I think
    [3:22pm] Keegan_: eekim, don't stock his ego
    [3:22pm] brassratgirl_: I had the village pump watchlisted
    [3:22pm] Keegan_: But I do as well, there are many issues with LiquidThread
    [3:22pm] eekim: *laugh* good point, Keegan
    [3:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, really, eekim: be careful agreeing with Natalie.
    [3:22pm] Keegan_: *stoke
    [3:22pm] eekim: y'all forget that Natalie is our head cheerleader
    [3:23pm] Keegan_: Yes, Natalie is a bastion of optimism
    [3:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: +pep
    [3:23pm] Keegan_: Oh yes, and pep
    [3:23pm] eekim: i'm excited about being a testbed for _iterative_ improvements to liquidthreads
    [3:23pm] eekim: i mentioned to werdna: i hope he's paying close attention to analytics
    [3:24pm] GerardM-: Keegan, there are many issues with talk pages as well
    [3:24pm] eekim: would very much like to be data-driven in how we prioritize improvements
    [3:24pm] GerardM-: imho the issues with LQT are less sever then the issues with talk pages
    [3:24pm] Keegan_: Talk pages as a whole?
    [3:24pm] GerardM-: yes
    [3:24pm] eekim: GerardM: agreed. i think it's an improvement.
    [3:24pm] Keegan_: Hm, well
    [3:25pm] GerardM-: My point is that perfection should not be the enemy of the good
    [3:25pm] Keegan_: Talkpages follow the USENET thread idea
    [3:25pm] GerardM-: I positively HATE them
    [3:25pm] tgr: and the issues with talk pages are less severe than the issues with mailing lists
    [3:25pm] eekim: how is that, keegan?
    [3:25pm] brassratgirl_: eekim: thanks for the link. I was thinking more of turning things on the :[:[How_to_participate]] page iinto a to-do list format
    [3:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: A good number of our users weren't born yet when USENET was in its heydey
    [3:25pm] eekim: brassratgirl: sounds like a good plan
    [3:25pm] tgr: hopefully LQT can replace those too at some point
    [3:26pm] Keegan_: eekim: they are supposed to be indented, threaded conversations, with replies underneath comments
    [3:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: Can I take that off my list for today and not think of it again until you poke me to look at it?
    [3:26pm] GerardM-: Also USENET is the past .. and we are looking towards the future
    [3:26pm] eekim: right, but not enforced
    [3:26pm] eekim: LiquidThreads is a lot closer to a traditional threaded system than a Talk page
    [3:26pm] Keegan_: Correct, no one makes format laws for talk pages
    [3:26pm] eekim: with some funky twists, of course
    [3:26pm] Keegan_: They can get confusing, I guess, if you have no idea how they are supposed to work
    [3:27pm] eekim: yes, absolutely
    [3:27pm] eekim: i think LQT will lower the barrier for new participants
    [3:27pm] Keegan_: eekim, right, LQT forces threading
    [3:27pm] eekim: but again, i'd like to be data-driven about this
    [3:27pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki ... you probably have a better idea of what needs doing than I do
    [3:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: I was afraid you were gonna say that
    [3:27pm] GerardM-: eekim you can not be datadriven when there is none
    [3:27pm] eekim: that's the beauty of launching this on strategy
    [3:27pm] eekim: we can set up little tests
    [3:27pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki : spend a few minutes brainstorming at least?
    [3:28pm] brassratgirl_: Phillipe|Wiki: want to just use the Strategic_Planning:To-do_list page?
    [3:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: Of course, brassratgirl_ it'll stay on the list.
    [3:28pm] GerardM-: You can not consider the value of localisation if you do not have an algorithm to compare it by
    [3:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: I think that makes sense.
    [3:28pm] Keegan_: So, to what extent are we trying to adapt the technology?
    [3:28pm] eekim: for example, after a week, i'd like to see how many people contributed to LQT who has never edited a Talk page
    [3:28pm] Keegan_: I'm all for getting new users, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water
    [3:28pm] eekim: GerardM: for certain things, you are correct
    [3:28pm] GerardM-: Keegan, the baby drowned
    [3:28pm] eekim: you always need a point of comparison
    [3:29pm] eekim: i agree Keegan
    [3:29pm] Keegan_: GerardM: Your opinion, I'm still floating
    [3:29pm] eekim: that's something we can be data-driven about as well
    [3:29pm] peteforsyth: eekim: my understanding from some earlier discussion was that Strategy wiki was intended to be very accessible to people who may not be very wiki literate
    [3:29pm] GerardM-: you are not a baby
    [3:29pm] peteforsyth: so is running a test of LQT compatible with that?
    [3:29pm] eekim: is LQT driving away existing talk page editors?
    [3:29pm] eekim: peteforsyth: exactly
    [3:29pm] Natalie: Talk pages are flexible.
    [3:29pm] eekim: yes
    [3:30pm] eekim: brassratgirl: Our biggest need right now is to get people more engaged with the content on strategy
    [3:30pm] GerardM-: they are so flexible that they changed what I said in one thread to say the complete opposite
    [3:30pm] eekim: the majority of people have submitted proposals, then disappeared
    [3:30pm] GerardM-: and it was not obviois
    [3:30pm] Keegan_: The current USENET approach that is the theory (note: not practice) that we use is that it is supposed to be intuitive
    [3:30pm] eekim: i'd like to see some percentage of those folks engaged on a deeper level
    [3:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: In addition, we need people who can start to look at what proposals should be merged, what proposals should be iterated, and what proposals should probably be archived.
    [3:31pm] Keegan_: Indent, reply, indent, reply
    [3:31pm] tgr: i would look at whether the number of watched talk pages increases with LQT, for example
    [3:31pm] Keegan_: Now whether or not this happens is relative to who is participating in the conversation, and how much do they care
    [3:31pm] tgr: inlucding pages where only some threads are watched
    [3:31pm] eekim: GerardM: indeed. i'd also note that you can do the same with Google Wave.
    [3:31pm] GerardM-: tgr when you implenent LQT, and new people come and join, they have to learn to use watch lists as well
    [3:31pm] eekim: another need: more analytics
    [3:32pm] Natalie: Philippe|Wiki: WYISWYG involves seeing A Big Header where you'd see == A Big Header ==.
    [3:32pm] tgr: one problem with the old system is that it is near impossible to follow specific conversations on large pages
    [3:32pm] Natalie: I'm not sure what Gopher was talking about.
    [3:32pm] Natalie: It's not near impossible.
    [3:32pm] Natalie: It's called refresh.
    [3:32pm] tgr: the noise from other conversations drowns it out on your watchlist
    [3:32pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki : iterated?
    [3:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher? Were you and Natalie on the same page?
    [3:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: uhm.... changed, modified, developed further?
    [3:33pm] tgr: and then they get archived, and you get no notification of that at all
    [3:33pm] tgr: so, lot of pain
    [3:33pm] tgr: LQT solves that neatly
    [3:33pm] Natalie: You won't get any notification with LQT either.
    [3:33pm] Keegan_: lol@watchlists
    [3:33pm] Natalie: Because it has no real concept of archiving.
    [3:33pm] eekim: how do you mean?
    [3:33pm] tgr: they wont get archived in the first place
    [3:33pm] Natalie:
    [3:34pm] Natalie: eekim: Threads just drop off the first page eventually.
    [3:34pm] Natalie: It's one big stream.
    [3:34pm] Keegan_: ...getting peed into
    [3:34pm] eekim: threads are addressable, though
    [3:34pm] brassratgirl_: philippe: ok. Do you like my very scientific term 'dejargonified' ?
    [3:35pm] tgr: if a talk page section is archived, it disappears from your watchlist, because in actuality the text is copied to another page wich you are not watching
    [3:35pm] eekim: so you can always link to past threads in the same way that you do with Talk archives
    [3:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: Is it in Wiktionary?
    [3:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: That's all that fancy-schmancy technical writing.
    [3:35pm] tgr: if a thread drops off the page, which btw happens at a user-selectable limit, you still get notifications when others post to it
    [3:35pm] Keegan_: I'd look it up there, but i don't want to be blocked
    [3:36pm] Natalie:
    [3:36pm] eekim: that'll be my next proposal: Wiktionary needs an entry for "dejargonified"
    [3:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: being blocked is bad.
    [3:36pm] Natalie: Yes. Playing Wikimedia strategy one Wiktionary entry at a time.
    [3:36pm] Natalie: Sounds like the Wikimedia I know.
    [3:36pm] tgr: also, archiving kills links, threads dropping off does not
    [3:36pm] cary: why would Keegan be blocked?
    [3:37pm] Natalie: Because Wiktionarians are insular assholes.
    [3:37pm] Keegan_: For looking at Wiktionary
    [3:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: cary: General principle, usually.
    [3:37pm] Natalie: At least English Wiktionarians.
    [3:37pm] Keegan_: Okay, well, Natalie said it better but less politely
    [3:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: Let's do our best to not, you know, disparage whole groups, please?
    [3:37pm] Natalie: Have you ever edited en.wikt?
    [3:37pm] Keegan_: Meh, he'll disparage himself too
    [3:37pm] Keegan_: Back to the point
    [3:38pm] Natalie: tgr: I see you're a convert to the Church of LQT.
    [3:38pm] Keegan_: What was the point?
    [3:38pm] Natalie: That Wiktionary doesn't have an entry for "dejargonified."
    [3:38pm] eekim: Natalie, didn't get your point behind the LaTeX screenshot. or was that meant for someone else?
    [3:38pm] Natalie: And Wikimedia's 5-year plan is to add one.
    [3:38pm] Natalie: eekim: Mostly meant for Philippe and Gopher.
    [3:38pm] eekim: got it
    [3:38pm] Natalie: To illustrate what WYSIWYG.
    [3:38pm] Natalie: +is
    [3:38pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: I'm fairly certain that was humor, but I can see how it's a subtle concept.
    [3:39pm] Natalie: Humor? In my strategy channel?
    [3:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, I got the screenshot, Natalie. But I haven't heard from gopher if that matches his/her/their expression of WYSIWYG
    [3:39pm] eekim: tgr: i agree. i think there was a lot of cleverness in LQT's design.
    [3:39pm] Natalie: Heh, cleverness is an odd term for it. It's certainly unique in a lot of respects.
    [3:40pm] eekim: how about "thoughtfulness"?
    [3:40pm] Keegan_: Quit with the semantics already
    [3:40pm] tgr: eekim, there are good ideas in it, but this part is just basic forum concepts
    [3:40pm] Keegan_: It's very unique
    [3:40pm] eekim: tgr: what i mean is how forum and wiki concepts are integrated
    [3:40pm] Natalie: Eep. Don't say forum. We'll just end up in the conversation from an hour ago again.
    [3:40pm] eekim: from a generic high-level standpoint, it's not anything particularly new
    [3:40pm] tgr: which shows how much our discussion system sucks, if even average forum software is so much superior in usability
    [3:41pm] peteforsyth left the chat room.
    [3:41pm] eekim: it's amazing the kinds of discussions that are possible on a blank sheet of paper. which is essentially how Talk works.
    [3:42pm] tgr: eekim, sure, but making a discussion system with linkable, followable threads with notification is not a big deal
    [3:42pm] tgr: the big deal is that we didn't do it for eight years
    [3:42pm] eekim: that's fair
    [3:43pm] Natalie: Not a big deal?
    [3:43pm] eekim: so the higher-level strategic question is, how can we get better at improvement?
    [3:43pm] Natalie: It's most certainly a big deal, both technically and socially.
    [3:43pm] tgr: Natalie, all but the most crappy forum software can do that
    [3:43pm] Natalie: Can do what? Act as a forum?
    [3:44pm] Natalie: How many pieces of forum software act as a wiki?
    [3:44pm] Natalie: Apples and oranges.
    [3:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: well, tgr, my vacuum can clean a house, but that doesn't make it useful for my computer? It's all in how things interact with each other.... forum software can do stuff, but if it doesn't link to a wiki....
    [3:44pm] tgr: actually there is nothing hard in using wikicode inside comments
    [3:45pm] eekim: it's the level of integration that's interesting. that's what i think is clever.
    [3:45pm] eekim: it's not just about wikilinks
    [3:45pm] tgr: drupal could do that for three years or so
    [3:45pm] eekim: addressable threads. every post is a wiki page. watchlist integration. threads moving with content.
    [3:46pm] eekim: you can't just plug in a forum naively and get the same functionality
    [3:46pm] eekim: maybe it's not a big deal for all forms of wiki interaction. not all wikis need separate Talk/content namespaces imho. but wikimedia wikis do.
    [3:47pm] tgr: there are great things in LQT, and I guess acceptable perfomance must have required a lot of effort too, with WP's level of traffic
    [3:47pm] eekim: absolutely. still not sure that LQT has accomplished that.
    [3:47pm] lyzzy: I need some input on what information of local processes is interesting for the wikimedia strategy process
    [3:47pm] tgr: I'm just saying it's not surprising we can have real threads, its not hard at all
    [3:47pm] Natalie: LQT still needs a lot of work.
    [3:47pm] Natalie: It's headed in the right direction (mostly).
    [3:47pm] lyzzy: wiimedia germay is working on an own strategy process
    [3:48pm] Natalie: But still needs a lot of work.
    [3:48pm] eekim: lyzzy: for one, just the fact that there is local activity.
    [3:48pm] tgr: what's surprising is we could have for years and didn't
    [3:48pm] lyzzy: hehe:)
    [3:48pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki: edit conflict! I added verbs
    [3:48pm] eekim: i think a page with a high-level summary of your activity and a pointer to the appropriate wiki page is a good starting point
    [3:48pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki: I must get back to work, but there's a start
    [3:48pm] tgr: the sort of mistake strategic planning hopefully helps us avoid in the future
    [3:48pm] lyzzy: we didn't translate our meta-pages yet and we can't do it at all
    [3:48pm] eekim: that's okay
    [3:48pm] lyzzy: what is more important: the process or the outcome
    [3:49pm] lyzzy: just to know wht to start with
    [3:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: Thanks!
    [3:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: and verbs are overrated.
    [3:49pm] eekim: have you completed your process?
    [3:49pm] lyzzy: eekim: no
    [3:49pm] lyzzy: not yet. we are publishing strategic core goals for each ressort
    [3:49pm] eekim: then i think a high-level summary and eventually a pointer to the outcome
    [3:49pm] lyzzy: and begin working on "task forces"
    [3:50pm] eekim: that's excellent
    [3:50pm] eekim: we might be able to point some translators your way as well
    [3:50pm] eekim: would benefit the entire community to get a peek at what you all are doing
    [3:51pm] tgr: eekim, Philippe|Wiki: now that volunteer applications will be closed, does that mean new proposals wont be accepted either, or are the two completely unrelated?
    [3:51pm] eekim: unrelated
    [3:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: Volunteer applications aren't closed yet but soon.... and, yeah, unrelated.
    [3:51pm] eekim: we have no plans to shut down the proposal process
    [3:51pm] lyzzy: eekim: ok. I take that and we will start to spread some information in english soon
    [3:52pm] cary: Hey, are there any people who volunteered who would be better off for Customer Service than on a task force?
    [3:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: lyzzy: I'm fascinated to see how things go there.
    [3:52pm] eekim: as i was saying to brassratgirl, though, i'd really like to encourage folks to explore/work with the content on the existing wiki rather than only use it to drop "new" ideas
    [3:52pm] cary: Because I'd love to have names
    [3:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: cary, let's talk later about how to get you the best use of this database.
    [3:52pm] cary: NOIW
    [3:52pm] eekim: cary, let me think about this.
    [3:52pm] cary: NOW
    [3:52pm] cary: I want what I want, and I want it now
    [3:52pm] cary:
    [3:53pm] • Philippe|Wiki feels trigger finger twitch
    [3:53pm] • eekim sic'ing Philippe on cary
    [3:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: clear to see, though, why Cary wants folks with service ability; his own certainly sucks. yelling "NOW" all over the channel.....
    [3:53pm] cary: oh, you should have heard my recent phone call
    [3:54pm] Keegan_: One of these days I will convince cary to hire me
    [3:54pm] Keegan_: One of these days
    [3:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: you don't want any part of Cary's madness.
    [3:54pm] cary: He is already a part
    [3:54pm] Keegan_: This is true
    [3:54pm] cary: speaking of which
    [3:55pm] • cary pm's Keegan_
    [3:55pm] lyzzy: cary: absolutely offtopic - but did you mention the queue-volume of the german otrs-queues?
    [3:55pm] lyzzy: we are really great!
    [3:56pm] brassratgirl_: cary: well, I'm looking at a proposal to rehire larry sanger...
    [3:56pm] Natalie: Oh, damn.
    [3:56pm] lyzzy: ok. let's go on strategy stuff
    [3:56pm] Natalie: I had a good comment to make there, but can't.
    [3:56pm] Natalie: Bah.
    [3:56pm] brassratgirl_: does anyone have any feedback for this?
    [3:56pm] gopher65: Ok, this is a visual representation of what I'd like to see in a WYSIWYG editor:
    [3:56pm] gopher65:
    [3:56pm] cary: brassratgirl_, he can be my assistant
    [3:56pm] • Natalie shakes his fist at Philippe|Wiki.
    [3:56pm] gopher65: Since people had trouble understanding what I wanted:P
    [3:56pm] Church_of_emacs left the chat room. ("Leaving")
    [3:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: I apprecaite your discretion
    [3:56pm] cary: lyzzy, yes, the germans are awesomely efficient
    [3:57pm] lyzzy: sometimes
    [3:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: Did you see gopher's rendition?
    [4:00pm] Natalie: I did. I don't understand how you'd type that into a edit window.
    [4:00pm] Natalie: Or why you'd want to...
    [4:00pm] eekim: gopher65: you're mixing up a lot of concepts there
    [4:00pm] Natalie: This. ^
    [4:00pm] gopher65: What concepts?
    [4:00pm] eekim: you list three things
    [4:00pm] eekim: a WYSIWYG editor
    [4:01pm] gopher65: WYSIWYG refers only to the end product, not to the pseudo-code that would be on the talk page
    [4:01pm] eekim: a rendered page
    [4:01pm] eekim: no
    [4:01pm] eekim: you're confusing the editing with the rendering
    [4:01pm] eekim: you have two forms of editing: WYSIWYG and syntax-highlighted markup
    [4:01pm] Natalie: What You See Is What You Get. It's about what the editing window looks like.
    [4:02pm] gopher65: And the *editing* window would be WYSIWYG
    [4:02pm] tgr: he is mixing up dreams with reality, mostly
    [4:02pm] eekim: that's right. that's the top box
    [4:02pm] gopher65: The *talk page edit feature* would be seeing the syntex
    [4:02pm] tgr: sure everyone would like a WYSIWYG editor which interfaces perfectly with wikitextú incompatible encoding
    [4:02pm] gopher65: Which liquid threads doesn't seem to do, afaik
    [4:02pm] eekim: why?
    [4:02pm] eekim: okay, let's take a step back for a moment
    [4:02pm] Dedalus_: gopher65 if you like richt text editing an encyclopedia article, try this one and give me some feedback
    [4:03pm] tgr: but that is not possible, for a number of reasons
    [4:03pm] GerardM-_ joined the chat room.
    [4:03pm] eekim: LQT is not simply a fancy editor on top of a Talk page
    [4:03pm] gopher65: ...which is what I want:P
    [4:03pm] gopher65: I don't want a forum system on the talk pages
    [4:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, but that's not what LQT is trying to be.
    [4:03pm] eekim: okay, so that's fair, but that's completely different
    [4:04pm] eekim: also, you have two different editing systems
    [4:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: So it's not really fair to blame LQT for not being what it's not trying to be.
    [4:04pm] eekim: one is WYSIWYG, one is not
    [4:04pm] gopher65: I guess that's true Philippe
    [4:04pm] eekim: doesn't make sense to have both (with one small caveat)
    [4:04pm] eekim: tools like WIKIWYG have an expert mode that lets you see the syntax if you'd like
    [4:05pm] eekim: but for the sake of usability, an Edit button should always open up one mode of editing
    [4:06pm] cary: LQT sounds like a version of gay
    [4:06pm] • eekim laughs
    [4:06pm] • cary goes to the LQT community center
    [4:07pm] eekim: don't tell Rush that Wikimedia is working on LQT
    [4:07pm] eekim: he might start a campaign
    [4:07pm] Dedalus_: start editing *without* clicking an edit button - right away in WYSIWYG mode:
    [4:08pm] eekim: Dedalus: WIKIWYG originally had a "bug" that allowed you to double click on a page to edit. Socialtext later decided it was a feature.
    [4:08pm] lyzzy left the chat room.
    [4:08pm] eekim: removing an edit button entirely is an interesting thought experiment
    [4:09pm] eekim: certainly removes another barrier
    [4:09pm] eekim: in some ways, this is the Google Wave vision
    [4:09pm] GerardM- left the chat room. ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 :[Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]")
    [4:09pm] eekim: okay folks, need to run
    [4:10pm] eekim: thanks for the good discussion everybody
    [4:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, me too... eekim makes me work.
    [4:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll be archiving this chat shortly.
    [4:10pm] eekim: folks should look at:
    [4:10pm] eekim: and edit away