IRC office hours/2010-02-09

    From Strategic Planning
    [12:00pm] eekim: hi everyone!
    [12:00pm] Tempodivalse joined the chat room.
    [12:00pm] eekim: hi tempodivalse
    [12:01pm] Tempodivalse: Hi eekim ! just lurking
    [12:01pm] Tempodivalse: i heard there were officehours inhere?
    [12:01pm] eekim: how goes LT on Wikinews?
    [12:01pm] cary joined the chat room.
    [12:01pm] eekim: yup
    [12:01pm] • cary BEEN SPAM'D
    [12:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: ooooh, i forgot, they turned it onover there
    [12:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: i need to go look
    [12:01pm] Tempodivalse: eekim: LQT works great. A couple ofkinks, but mostly works well
    [12:01pm] • Philippe|Wiki throws spam at cary
    [12:02pm] eekim: feedback from participants?
    [12:02pm] Tempodivalse: WN is sort of a testing ground forbeta material ... we're currently the only WMF non-content project to use bothLQT and vector
    [12:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: eh-hem, you mean"content"
    [12:02pm] Tempodivalse: eekim: not much feedback yet, mostpeople seem to view it as an improvement though
    [12:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: you're a content project.
    [12:02pm] Tempodivalse: oops. sorry
    [12:02pm] Jan_eissfeldt joined the chat room.
    [12:02pm] Tempodivalse: got confused
    [12:02pm] cary: ooh, what can we break on WN today?
    [12:03pm] eekim: Tempodivalse: excellent, glad to hear it'sworking out well
    [12:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: ooooh, actually, that remindsme.... new LiquidThreads roll out in... about 90 minutes actually
    [12:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: presuming werdna wakes up and all
    [12:03pm] Tempodivalse: Yeah. We've only enabled it in onenamespace, the Comments: namespace (hey, what news site is complete without aplace to rant? :-b )
    [12:03pm] Mike||gone is now known as Mike_lifeguard.
    [12:04pm] Tempodivalse: community decided we'd look morelike a professional news site with an organised commentary system, not theold-fashioned indenting
    [12:04pm] Tempodivalse: but for regular talk pages, LQTdoesn't work. community didn't want to employ it for that
    [12:04pm] eekim: interesting
    [12:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: I know it's not without it'squirks, but I'm actually quite fond of LQT. I figured out how to split a part of a thread off and moveit yesterday. it made me veryhappy.
    [12:05pm] JoseS joined the chat room.
    [12:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: i went running around saying"look what i can do!"
    [12:05pm] eekim: hi JoseS!
    [12:05pm] JoseS: hi Eugene
    [12:05pm] Tempodivalse: hehe. it's really got all the bellsand whistles attached, doesn't it?
    [12:05pm] eekim: glad to see you here
    [12:05pm] JoseS: thanks, sorry I'm late
    [12:05pm] eekim: no worries, just getting started
    [12:06pm] eekim: lots of new conversation on the strategywiki
    [12:06pm] eekim: i'm going to post a proposed timeline andprocess for the strategy task force later today
    [12:06pm] Tempodivalse: Yeah, noticed there's morediscussion on strategy wiki recently. Wikinews takes up most of my time now(with a writing competition in full swing and all that) but I hope tocontribute to strategy wiki some more
    [12:07pm] eekim: fantastic, Tempodivalse
    [12:07pm] eekim: there's actually some good potentialsynergy
    [12:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, the writing competitionlooks like it's going well, Tempo
    [12:07pm] Tempodivalse: Any suggestions where i shouldstart? I'm active at the water cooler answering queries, but anything else thatisn't too dificult?
    [12:07pm] eekim: one thing that folks from Wiktionary didand people from Wikiversity started doing was articulated what support theyneeded
    [12:07pm] eekim: would be great if Wikinews did the same
    [12:07pm] Tempodivalse: excuse me: village pump. watercooler is at wikinews
    [12:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: (we're also asking chapters tobegin to articulate what support they need as well)
    [12:08pm] eekim: two places to focus: Village Pump andstrategy task force
    [12:08pm] eekim: that's right. thanks, Philippe|Wiki.
    [12:08pm] Tempodivalse: Yeah, Activity really seems to havepicked up lately. How have you promoted the project?
    [12:08pm] Mike_lifeguard left the chat room. ("Mike isa four-letter word.")
    [12:08pm] Tempodivalse: central notice i presume?
    [12:09pm] eekim: centralnotice + good ol' fashioned email /barnraising
    [12:09pm] AlexandrDmitri joined the chat room.
    [12:09pm] eekim: we're starting to reach critical mass,both in content and participants
    [12:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: centralnotice, email, VPs nvarious projects, and nice people telling their friend. Eekim nixed my idea for skywriting.
    [12:09pm] JoseS: do I understand correctly that this isquite a different approach than before? we are now asking specific groups toarticulate specific needs?
    [12:09pm] Tempodivalse: because, i'm thinking of ways thatsmaller wikimedia projects can be advertised.
    [12:09pm] eekim: no, JoseS
    [12:09pm] Tempodivalse: hallo AlexandrDmitri! :-b
    [12:09pm] eekim: we asked before. we're doing a better jobof understanding how to ask.
    [12:10pm] eekim: and we can do even better
    [12:10pm] JoseS: ah good good hehe
    [12:10pm] eekim: there's a good lesson for all of us there
    [12:10pm] eekim: simply posting a question on a wiki pageor sending an email to a mailing list is not necessarily a sufficient ask
    [12:11pm] eekim: the lessons from centralnotice areinteresting
    [12:11pm] eekim: having content and a specific questionversus a blank slate makes a big difference in getting people engaged
    [12:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: We spend a lot of time, actuallysaying "What's the ask"
    [12:12pm] eekim: you also have to tailor the question tothe audience
    [12:12pm] eekim: i'm learning a lot about how to askchapters to engage from talking to people like JoseS
    [12:12pm] JoseS: well that is normal I guess it's just exta hard in our context forit is so broad
    [12:13pm] eekim: it is hard, but you have to do it, if youwant to succeed
    [12:13pm] JoseS: of course
    [12:13pm] eekim: and you have to really, truly listen topeople
    [12:14pm] JoseS: but the kind of questions I now understandwe want answered are quite specific, how will that work out for the results ofthe strategy process as a whole?
    [12:14pm] JoseS: I mean... just for my understanding, whatare we working towards?
    [12:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: Good point. Probably important to articulate that.
    [12:14pm] eekim: we want to work towards a narrative and aset of priorities that everyone in the movement can get behind
    [12:15pm] eekim: something that people can tailor to suittheir needs, but that is largely aligned with everyone else
    [12:15pm] JoseS: hmmmm
    [12:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: in tandem to that, the WikimediaFoundation is developing its business plan and establishing what its prioritiesare, which makes it very clear where the rest of us as parts of the movementcan fill in the gaps.
    [12:16pm] JoseS: I may be wrong, but I would say there areprobably a number of different "goals" we have, in the sense ofoutcomes
    [12:16pm] eekim: say more
    [12:17pm] JoseS: you are both looking for the bigger lines(where are we going, where will the movement be in 5 or 10 years), as well asways to find out and answer specific needs of specific groups
    [12:17pm] JoseS: it seems to me that they are both valid,but just.. different
    [12:17pm] JoseS: I have that problem with the currentrecommendations too
    [12:17pm] JoseS: some are very broad, some are veryspecific
    [12:18pm] eekim: aren't they related?
    [12:18pm] eekim: shouldn't the specific be connected to thebroad?
    [12:19pm] JoseS: sure, and both have a place in the processI guess, but the fact that they are now all on one big stack doesnt seem to addto understanding of where we are going with this strategy thing
    [12:19pm] JoseS: at least, for me
    [12:20pm] eekim: perhaps it would help if we worked throughan example
    [12:21pm] eekim: so, one specific issue that many chaptersseem to be grappling with is professionalization, right?
    [12:21pm] JoseS: some at least, yeah
    [12:21pm] JoseS: now I see 2 different directions / asks
    [12:22pm] JoseS: 1 is the bigger picture: do we want chapters to professionalize at all?
    [12:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: by "we" in "do wewant...", who do you mean?
    [12:22pm] JoseS: we the movement, sorry
    [12:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: do you mean "we" thechapter? or "we" the movement?
    [12:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: gotit, thanks
    [12:23pm] lyzzy joined the chat room.
    [12:23pm] eekim: excellent. what's the second ask?
    [12:23pm] JoseS: 2 is the specific problems I as a chapterhave
    [12:23pm] JoseS: money, steps to take, advise I need
    [12:23pm] eekim: (hi lyzzy!)
    [12:23pm] lyzzy: hej eekim
    [12:23pm] • Philippe|Wiki waves to lyzzy
    [12:23pm] lyzzy: and Philippe|Wiki !
    [12:23pm] JoseS: hello Lyzzy
    [12:23pm] eekim: okay, so 2 is a tactical issue. if we (themovement) agree that chapters should professionalize, we need to figure out howto make that happen
    [12:24pm] lyzzy: and the rest
    [12:24pm] eekim: so let's start with 1 first, then talkabout 2
    [12:24pm] eekim: what benefit would we (the movement) gainfrom professionalized chapters?
    [12:24pm] Jamesofur is now known as Jamesofur|meetin.
    [12:24pm] JoseS: yes, although we must realize that inreality these discussions already take place side by side
    [12:25pm] eekim: definitely
    [12:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: Full time attention paid by atleast one person in the chapters. Volunteers are fantastic, but over-worked.
    [12:25pm] eekim: what would those full-time people do?
    [12:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: <shrug> that one would have to be a chapterlevel decision, yes? Some chaptersmight want a person to be a developer. Others, a director. Stillothers, a fundraiser.
    [12:25pm] lyzzy: help volunteers to organize events forexample
    [12:25pm] WereSpielChequer: Hi all. Before we decidewhether we want to professionalise some or all of the chapters would it behelpful to consider what we mean by professionalise?
    [12:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hey WereSpielChequer!
    [12:26pm] eekim: good question, WereSpielChequer
    [12:26pm] JoseS: hello good point. The discussion is mainly staff vs volunteers
    [12:26pm] lyzzy: for most chapter people professionlizemeans hire staff
    [12:27pm] JoseS: volunteers trying to work moreprofessionaly never meet any resistance
    [12:27pm] JoseS: so yeah, hire staff
    [12:27pm] WereSpielChequer: One aspect of prefessionalismthat I'm keen on is that they get charitable status in those countries wherethat would be worthwhile.
    [12:27pm] JoseS: true, but that is not under discussionreally
    [12:27pm] eekim: okay, so chapters want to do things, andhaving full-time staff working with volunteers would make it easier.
    [12:28pm] JoseS: chapters are encouraged to do that, andare working on it
    [12:28pm] eekim: let's hold off on that discussion for onesecond, WereSpielChequer
    [12:28pm] eekim: presumably, different chapters want to dodifferent things
    [12:28pm] eekim: is there any commonality between whatchapters want to do with full-time staff?
    [12:28pm] JoseS: they all want to use staff to supporttheir volunteer work
    [12:29pm] eekim: great. very good.
    [12:29pm] JoseS: that may be by taking over adminstrativework around activities
    [12:29pm] lyzzy: some wants staff to do fundraising first
    [12:29pm] Philippe|Wiki: they all want staff, I believe,who will act as a liason to the Foundation in some way
    [12:29pm] eekim: so now we're starting to get to a high-levelpriority
    [12:29pm] JoseS: or actual activity-work, or fundraisingetc
    [12:29pm] Philippe|Wiki: (I'm guessing on that one)
    [12:29pm] JoseS: no philippe
    [12:29pm] JoseS: I would say that is one of the lowestthings on our lists if I wouldguess
    [12:30pm] eekim: so one thing that chapters seem to have incommon is that they want to leverage their volunteers better
    [12:30pm] lyzzy: ack
    [12:30pm] • Philippe|Wiki nods i've been wro ng before
    [12:30pm] eekim: i would guess that that's probably apriority for many projects, not just chapters
    [12:30pm] JoseS: yes
    [12:31pm] eekim: so if we could agree that that's ahigh-level priority, now we go down deep again and start thinking about how todo that
    [12:31pm] eekim: for chapters, one way to do that is professionalization
    [12:31pm] eekim: if the movement agrees that chapters havehigh-potential in leveraging local volunteers...
    [12:31pm] eekim: (whether it's for events, localpartnerships, fundraising, etc.)...
    [12:32pm] eekim: and if we can agree that having full-timestaff can help with this...
    [12:32pm] eekim: then we understand what we're aiming for,and we can start work _together_ to identify how we can do that
    [12:32pm] JoseS: but then the "discussion-part"kicks in
    [12:32pm] lyzzy: hehe
    [12:32pm] eekim: yes
    [12:32pm] WereSpielChequer: We also need to keep the lowentry point volunteer run option for chapters, otherwise we will only havechapters where more than a certain amount of money can be raised or thefoundation is willing to support
    [12:33pm] JoseS: not everyone is as convinced that chapters/should/ hire at all
    [12:33pm] eekim: but i think if we articulated what weagreed on first, that would make the discussion part much easier
    [12:33pm] eekim: do you think everyone is convinced thatchapters should focus on leveraging volunteers?
    [12:33pm] lyzzy: and not everyone is convonced thatchapters have the best potential in supporting volunteers
    [12:33pm] eekim: good point, WereSpielChequer. i think thatties into JoseS's statement too
    [12:33pm] lyzzy: ups
    [12:33pm] eekim: say more, lyzzy
    [12:33pm] JoseS: WereSpielChequer: absolutely.professionalizing should be a way for existing volunteer chapters to be able togrow
    [12:34pm] lyzzy: there are voices in the community thatwant more ou-of-the-community-support
    [12:34pm] lyzzy: they don't like institutional structures,forms and applications
    [12:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: lyzzy: do you mean "fromwithin the community" or "from outside the community"?
    [12:35pm] eekim: and could you give a specific example?
    [12:35pm] lyzzy: frim within
    [12:35pm] lyzzy: i try
    [12:36pm] Jan_eissfeldt: a lot of europeans, for examples,points out that wikipods would be more productive and much cheaper but theyignore the legal requirements for big cooperations
    [12:36pm] lyzzy: thy Jan_eissfeldt
    [12:36pm] eekim: that's a great example. so do wikipodspreclude chapters, or can they coexist?
    [12:36pm] lyzzy: and hi
    [12:37pm] Jan_eissfeldt: i think we all agree that we needchapter structures to deal with institutional affaires
    [12:37pm] Jan_eissfeldt: always a pleasre lyzzy
    [12:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: imho - i think wikipods can existwithin chapters, along side chapters, or without chapters.
    [12:37pm] eekim: great, so we're talking about"and", not "either or"
    [12:37pm] eekim: which i think speaks to another possiblepriority
    [12:38pm] eekim: what we (the movement) are trying toaccomplish is _huge_
    [12:38pm] • JoseS agrees with philippe this time
    [12:38pm] lyzzy: but most wikipedian editors don't thinkabout institutional affairs, they just want their ideas to be supported
    [12:38pm] • Philippe|Wiki high fives jose
    [12:38pm] WereSpielChequer: I suspect that a real worldchapter will be able to organise real world things like museum access with someinstitutions that want to deal with an entity. But other museus are happy towork with a wikipedian....
    [12:38pm] eekim: we need to empower people to try differentthings
    [12:38pm] cary: Is that Jose from the NL?
    [12:38pm] JoseS: yes
    [12:38pm] lyzzy: and somtimes they feel over-organized bythe chapter and its formsalism
    [12:38pm] cary: hey girl!
    [12:39pm] JoseS: hello
    [12:39pm] eekim: so we need to say clearly that chaptersare _one_ possible way to do things, but there are other possible ways
    [12:39pm] JoseS: we need to understand that there are manyroads to rome
    [12:39pm] eekim: and we need to encourage people to exploreand experiment and communicate with everyone else so we can watch and learnfrom each other
    [12:39pm] eekim: exactly
    [12:39pm] eekim: i think if we articulated that as apriority, or at least a statement of principle, that would be very helpful
    [12:39pm] lyzzy: there should be other ways
    [12:39pm] JoseS: it is an existing reality
    [12:40pm] lyzzy: and we as chapters should support them too
    [12:40pm] JoseS: we have chapters, local ad hoc groups, wehave individuals...
    [12:40pm] JoseS: sure: eg, we as a chapter have this smallsubsidies fund for people from the community
    [12:40pm] lyzzy: cary: (I love your curls)
    [12:40pm] Philippe|Wiki: and non-local ad hoc groups. (For instance, wikiprojects organizedaround issues that cooordinate with entities, but are not geographicallylocated)
    [12:40pm] cary: lyzzy: who would have thought I had ShirleyTemple hair.
    [12:41pm] eekim: this is great. so if this is somethingthat a lot of people agree with, we should articulate that clearly and startfrom there.
    [12:41pm] JoseS: I think you will find no resistance inthat
    [12:41pm] eekim: great, so starting from a place of littleresistance is a good strategy
    [12:41pm] eekim: but we haven't done that yet
    [12:41pm] AlexandrDmitri left the chat room.
    [12:41pm] eekim: i haven't seen an articulation of thesethings anywhere
    [12:41pm] eekim: something that says what we all agree onat least
    [12:42pm] eekim: that alone would help tremendously, ibelieve
    [12:42pm] JoseS: fair enoug
    [12:42pm] JoseS: h
    [12:42pm] eekim: if it's simple to do, let's just do it,and then tackle the more difficult stuff next
    [12:43pm] JoseS: I guess it comes down to the idea that weas a movement want to support all different ways in which volunteers want tobecome active irl to promote our goals
    [12:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: Sounds like a statement ofprinciple to me, JoseS
    [12:43pm] JoseS: maybe not even just irl
    [12:43pm] eekim: yes!
    [12:43pm] eekim: absolutely
    [12:44pm] JoseS: but that is very vague and general what's the next step?
    [12:45pm] eekim: well, a small group of us reachedconsensus on this fairly easily
    [12:45pm] eekim: let's make it a larger consensus first
    [12:45pm] eekim: then let's start digging deeper into thenext set of questions
    [12:45pm] eekim: what do you think some of those questionsare, JoseS?
    [12:45pm] JoseS: this idea really isnt new
    [12:45pm] lyzzy: but how get the large group?
    [12:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: From an interesting direction,this is similar to what the Foundation articulated as one of its priorities...'strengthen and grow the contributor base that is the lifeblood of Wikimedia' -from there, they did a series of lower level priorities, and a set ofpriorities that fed up to those....
    [12:46pm] JoseS: lyzzy: I think the big group isnt thatinterested in this kind of principle statement, just because it is an open door
    [12:46pm] eekim: JoseS, but it hasn't been done
    [12:46pm] eekim: meaning you think they wouldn't agree withthose principles?
    [12:47pm] lyzzy: JoseS: that#s what i have in mind, but howto find eekim#s larger consensu?
    [12:47pm] JoseS: meaning they do and they think it isobvious
    [12:47pm] lyzzy: yes
    [12:47pm] • werdna waves shyly
    [12:47pm] eekim: (hey werdna! don't be shy)
    [12:47pm] JoseS: I don't think you want to find consensuson /that/, you just need to make sure you work from there
    [12:47pm] lyzzy: werdna:
    [12:47pm] • mark waves to werdna
    [12:48pm] lyzzy: indeed, we just should think about how togi on
    [12:48pm] JoseS: the questions you pose need to be somewhatmore specific, but people have to believe that you guys have a clue of what youare talking about
    [12:48pm] eekim: great, so if that's easy to get consensuson, let's write down what we agree on, and let's get everyone to say theyagree, then let's move on to next steps
    [12:48pm] JoseS: no offense
    [12:48pm] eekim: none taken, JoseS
    [12:48pm] lyzzy: just do it
    [12:48pm] JoseS: yeah, just do it
    [12:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: Who constitutes consensus?
    [12:49pm] eekim: so let's assume that this small group willstart doing the articulation, and let's talk about the next set of questions
    [12:49pm] cary: consenting
    [12:49pm] JoseS: philippe: the fact that it is in line withthe general goals of WMF means there must be consensus on it hehe
    [12:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: cary, not "what", but"who"
    [12:51pm] eekim: so one question you mentioned before,JoseS, was, what are the tactical steps that chapters need to professionalize?
    [12:51pm] JoseS: now that, again, is one of the verychapter-specific questions
    [12:51pm] eekim: so the question i would ask you is (and Iknow you've answered this with me before), what do you need?
    [12:51pm] eekim: yes, so individual entities need to askand answer individual questions
    [12:52pm] JoseS: also, but the biggest problems are indetermining the way to structure the movement
    [12:52pm] JoseS: these individual questions are practical
    [12:52pm] eekim: okay, great, let's tackle that next
    [12:52pm] eekim: so we can approach that question by askingfirst how the movement is currently structured
    [12:53pm] eekim: who are the different entities in themovement, what are their roles, and what are the gaps?
    [12:53pm] JoseS: and where is the heat of the discussionright now
    [12:53pm] eekim: that would be a great next step to tackleon the wiki
    [12:53pm] eekim: yes, absolutely, JoseS
    [12:53pm] eekim: let
    [12:53pm] JoseS: are you aware of the big issues around thebrasilian "chapter" ?
    [12:53pm] eekim: let's map it out
    [12:53pm] lyzzy: and what belongs to "themovement"
    [12:53pm] JoseS: good one too
    [12:53pm] eekim: i know a bit about it, yes
    [12:53pm] eekim: shall we start there?
    [12:54pm] JoseS: well yeah - I have no intention onactually "tackling" that..
    [12:54pm] eekim:
    [12:54pm] eekim: let's at least capture the issues as partof a larger map
    [12:54pm] JoseS: but those are the questions people worryabout now, people disagree upon
    [12:54pm] JoseS: sure
    [12:54pm] lyzzy: indeed
    [12:55pm] JoseS: it relates to the core ideas on how themovement should be structured
    [12:55pm] JoseS: "what is a chapter"
    [12:55pm] JoseS: "can there be only 1 one form ofchapters"?
    [12:55pm] eekim: what i understand from talking tobrazilians about this issue is that being a "chapter" isn't asimportant as being able to call themselves "Wikimedia"
    [12:55pm] lyzzy: are chapters regional or national
    [12:55pm] eekim: do people agree with that statement?
    [12:55pm] JoseS: yeah for the brasilians
    [12:56pm] lyzzy: the brasilians do
    [12:56pm] lyzzy:
    [12:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: eekim: Not totally. What's important to them is to be ableto use the marks. What they call themselvesis not as important to them.
    [12:56pm] eekim: okay, thanks for the clarification,Philippe|Wiki
    [12:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: They tossed around some nameswithout the word "Wikimedia" in them
    [12:56pm] JoseS: the problem is what it means for the structureof the movement
    [12:56pm] WereSpielChequer: No we need at least two forms -geographic and linguistic. Plus a sliding scale from very small chapers to verylarge
    [12:56pm] JoseS: everyone wants the brasilians to be ableto just do great things
    [12:56pm] lyzzy: WereSpielChequer: yes
    [12:57pm] eekim: so the question then, is, what do theBrazilians need to do that?
    [12:57pm] eekim: rights to the marks is one
    [12:57pm] JoseS: I think you are moving away from thequestion
    [12:57pm] eekim: and if chapters aren't the best way forthem to get those, it seems like we should explore other ways
    [12:57pm] eekim: how so, JoseS?
    [12:57pm] JoseS: this is the empowering volunteers thingagain
    [12:57pm] eekim: there seems to be a gap in the structure,no?
    [12:57pm] lyzzy: it might be, but i am not sure
    [12:58pm] lyzzy: it could be a varinat, not a gap
    [12:58pm] eekim: brazilians want to do great things. theythink having access to the marks will help them with this. they don't think thecurrent chapter structure works for them.
    [12:58pm] JoseS: the problem has to do with determiningwhat chapters are
    [12:58pm] eekim: that's one possible solution, notnecessarily the problem
    [12:58pm] eekim: one possible solution is redefining whatit means to be a chapter
    [12:58pm] JoseS: no, the current chapter structure thinksthe idea of the brasilians doesnt work for it
    [12:58pm] lyzzy: and what is the problem?
    [12:59pm] eekim: the problem is figuring out how to empowerthe brazilians to do great work
    [12:59pm] eekim: agreed?
    [12:59pm] JoseS: mmm no sorry, I think it really is more complicated
    [12:59pm] lyzzy: no, they do great work, i think
    [12:59pm] eekim: say more
    [12:59pm] JoseS: there is not only the interest of thebrasilians
    [12:59pm] WereSpielChequer: The Unitend Kingdoom chapterhas to grapple with some of those issues, can we involve celtic speakers andbangla speakers who happen to live in the UK? Rather than determine whatchapters are perhaps we should determine what they could be and make it clearthere are options
    [12:59pm] JoseS: there is also the interest of existingchapters
    [1:00pm] lyzzy: and i would like to get back to thevolunteer supporting issue
    [1:00pm] eekim: WereSpielChequer, i totally agree
    [1:00pm] eekim: JoseS, are the interests of existingchapters in conflict with the notion of empowering the brazilians in whateverway makes sense?
    [1:01pm] lyzzy: eekim: what i mean is that we should notfocus on the brasilians
    [1:01pm] eekim: lyzzy, which issue exactly?
    [1:01pm] JoseS: the goals are not, but the definition ofwhat a chapter is may conflict, sure
    [1:01pm] eekim: lyzzy, got it. i'm using them as anexample. can we generalize the issues that the brazilians are facing to helpanswer larger questions?
    [1:01pm] lyzzy: they do great things and they make us think about different structures andoptions
    [1:01pm] Tempodivalse left the chat room. (Ping timeout:248 seconds)
    [1:02pm] lyzzy: but they are only one of many
    [1:02pm] JoseS: a lot of groups want to do great, some of them don't meet chapter criteria
    [1:02pm] lyzzy: eekim: ok
    [1:02pm] eekim: JoseS, right. and for many groups, thatprobably doesn't matter, right? if people don't want to be chapters, it doesn'tmatter what they are
    [1:02pm] JoseS: yes
    [1:03pm] eekim: so then, it becomes a question of, whathappens if groups do want to be a chapter, but they don't meet the criteria?
    [1:03pm] eekim: so the options seem to be:
    [1:03pm] eekim: 1. redefine the definition of chapters toaccomodate other groups
    [1:03pm] eekim: 2. explore other organizational forms
    [1:03pm] Tempodivalse joined the chat room.
    [1:03pm] JoseS: and what happens in countries where ourcurrent idea of a "chapter" is just not workable
    [1:03pm] Tempodivalse: sorry folks. browser is wonky
    [1:03pm] eekim: no worries, Tempodivalse
    [1:03pm] JoseS: indeed, eekim
    [1:03pm] Tempodivalse: had to forcefully ctrl+alt+deleteit, that isn't good for the irc connection
    [1:04pm] eekim: okay, great. so to answer this question, ithink the chapters have to ask themselves a deep question
    [1:04pm] eekim: what is their purpose?
    [1:05pm] lyzzy: that's a really deep question
    [1:05pm] brianmc: Same thing we do every night, ... Try ToTake Over The World
    [1:05pm] eekim: if their purpose is, for example, to be a legalinstitutional entity in order to accomodate certain potential partnerships,then it seems like that requirement is important and shouldn't be changed
    [1:05pm] eekim: in which case the answer for the brazilians(for example) would be to explore another organizational form
    [1:05pm] lyzzy: and maybe the answer differs from chapterto chapter
    [1:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: brianmc: okay, pinky!
    [1:05pm] JoseS: well there are reasons why we have certaincriteria
    [1:05pm] kibble left the chat room. (Disconnected byservices)
    [1:06pm] eekim: JoseS, do you feel like there's agreementon those reasons?
    [1:06pm] JoseS: I'm not even sure why all of them are inplace exactly, but surely ChapCom has thought about this many times
    [1:06pm] lyzzy: *many* time
    [1:06pm] JoseS:
    [1:06pm] eekim: have they articulated those reasonsanywhere?
    [1:06pm] Az1568_ left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 256seconds)
    [1:07pm] JoseS: where is effeietsanders when you needhim...
    [1:07pm] JoseS: I'm not sure where, eekim, sorry
    [1:07pm] eekim: that's okay, JoseS. i can pingeffeietsanders after this
    [1:07pm] • Philippe|Wiki thinks so, digs
    [1:08pm] eekim: so assuming these reasons have beenarticulated, do you think that there's consensus on those reasons?
    [1:08pm] lyzzy: among the chapcom i think there is
    [1:09pm] JoseS: I'm not surely everyone weighs them thesame though, outside chapcom I mean
    [1:09pm] JoseS: you of course have to balance between thedifferent interests
    [1:09pm] Natalie: Strategy is serious business.
    [1:09pm] Philippe|Wiki:
    [1:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: That gives a top level overview
    [1:09pm] eekim: thx, Philippe|Wiki
    [1:10pm] JoseS: some people attach very great value to theidea of supporting groups, and want as little thresholds as possible for agroup to become a chapter
    [1:10pm] eekim: so i would like to know where all thedifferent chapters stand on this question
    [1:10pm] eekim: i know i'm repeating myself, but i think ifwe understood where we agree and disagree on this specific issue, it will helpus resolve the remaining issues
    [1:11pm] lyzzy: another small survey?
    [1:11pm] JoseS: as long as we try not to make the chaosworse instead of better hehe
    [1:11pm] lyzzy:
    [1:11pm] eekim: absolutely
    [1:11pm] eekim: lyzzy, maybe that's a good next step?
    [1:11pm] eekim: the survey
    [1:12pm] JoseS: you should involve chapcom though
    [1:12pm] eekim: makes sense
    [1:12pm] eekim: that's actually a really good point. i haven'treached out to them directly yet. we really should.
    [1:12pm] lyzzy: the small survay bout chapter's interestshelped a lot i zhink
    [1:13pm] JoseS: they are dealing with these problems everyday hehe
    [1:13pm] eekim: glad to hear that, lyzzy
    [1:13pm] JoseS: I'm afraid I missed that one hehe
    [1:13pm] eekim: okay, so i think we have some next stepsfrom this conversation
    [1:13pm] eekim: 1. summarize this conversation
    [1:13pm] eekim: 2. start getting consensus around thehigher-level priorities
    [1:13pm] eekim: and principles
    [1:14pm] eekim: 3. try to understand where chapters andchapcom fall on the question of, "what should chapters be and why?"
    [1:14pm] eekim: possibly via a survey
    [1:14pm] eekim: and reach out directly to chapcom on theseissues
    [1:14pm] eekim: anything else?
    [1:15pm] cary: lunch!
    [1:15pm] lyzzy: sleep!
    [1:15pm] JoseS: I would however like to stress again that Ifeel we should not try to suggest that we want to /solve/ these things in thestrategy process
    [1:15pm] eekim: good call, cary
    [1:15pm] eekim: lyzzy,
    [1:15pm] Tempodivalse: (off topic) how long does officehours officially last?
    [1:15pm] eekim: okay, JoseS. my focus right now is onarticulation.
    [1:15pm] eekim: Tempodivalse, technically, we're 15 minutesover
    [1:15pm] Tempodivalse: oh, so one hour?
    [1:15pm] Tempodivalse: right. got it
    [1:16pm] Jan_eissfeldt: you should ask them, brasilia,india and the other big markets without stable official structures
    [1:16pm] cary: Tempodivalse, it's "Office hour"
    [1:16pm] eekim: yes
    [1:16pm] Tempodivalse: cary: heh, right :-b
    [1:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: Jan_eissfeldt: interesting p oint
    [1:16pm] eekim: Jan_eissfeldt, absolutely. can you (andothers) help with that?
    [1:16pm] JoseS: I know eekim, I mean: I think the responsewill be higher if we don't overreach
    [1:16pm] Tempodivalse: well, i'm off, discussion seems tohave settled down. cheers and till next time
    [1:16pm] Tempodivalse left the chat room.
    [1:16pm] eekim: JoseS, absoutely. very smart.
    [1:16pm] eekim: thanks, Tempodivalse
    [1:16pm] Az1568_ joined the chat room.
    [1:17pm] Jan_eissfeldt: the cheapest way has two options.invate them to the survey or the chapters conference and discuss their problems
    [1:17pm] JoseS: eekim: chapcom has very direct lines
    [1:17pm] eekim: JoseS, what do you mean?
    [1:17pm] eekim: Jan_eissfeldt, will you help write asurvey?
    [1:17pm] JoseS: I mean, Chapcom is working very closelywith the brasilians and the indians
    [1:18pm] kibble joined the chat room.
    [1:18pm] eekim: ah, okay
    [1:18pm] JoseS: on these exact issues
    [1:18pm] Jan_eissfeldt: sure eekim, i can. after the launchof the public outreach project draft
    [1:18pm] eekim: right. so we need to be sure we're workingwith them.
    [1:18pm] eekim: awesome, Jan_eissfeldt!
    [1:18pm] JoseS: yeah, going around them invitingnot-yet-chapters in chapter-things seems a bit... well... biased
    [1:19pm] lyzzy: i - as everyone - know thomas from brasiland could aks him, but i have no contacts to india or any othernon-chapter-movement
    [1:19pm] JoseS: I think there are other chapters-to-be too
    [1:19pm] JoseS: I was asked to serve as a"mentor" for the Indians in their development to chapter
    [1:19pm] JoseS: by sue
    [1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: JoseS: Several. There's a pretty good liston Meta
    [1:20pm] JoseS: but they just havent reached the point yetwhere chapcom can actually agree on them becoming a chapter
    [1:20pm] JoseS: practical matters, really - no big problems
    [1:20pm] cary is now known as iCary.
    [1:20pm] JoseS: but it just seems right to go with chapcominstead of around, that's all
    [1:20pm] eekim: JoseS, totally agree.
    [1:21pm] eekim: i'll talk with them, and we'll make surethat we solicit input from chapters-to-be and those who want to be chapters aswell
    [1:21pm] JoseS: yep
    [1:21pm] eekim: very good, everybody
    [1:21pm] eekim: thanks for great conversation
    [1:21pm] eekim: you'll all be hearing from me soon
    [1:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: Thanks everyone!
    [1:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll get the log posted/.
    [1:22pm] iCary: those are the good conversations
    [1:22pm] JoseS: the logs are posted huh
    [1:22pm] iCary: I didn't even get to troll
    [1:22pm] eekim: good night, everybody (and happy lunch-timefor the rest of us)
    [1:22pm] JoseS: If I had only known that...
    [1:22pm] JoseS: ciao
    [1:22pm] • eekim laughs
    [1:22pm] eekim: bye
    [1:22pm] You left the room.