IRC office hours/2010-04-13

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eekim: hi all

[8:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: hey eekim
[9:00pm] eekim: both philippe and i are heading to berlin tomorrow for the chapters meeting
[9:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: 5 Bloody AM in the morning.
[9:01pm] Mikemoral: That's early...
[9:01pm] eekim: that's philippe's fault for flying business class
[9:01pm] eekim: i leave in the afternoon
[9:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: heh, but on coach class fare, for the record
[9:01pm] eekim: true, true
[9:02pm] eekim: would love people's feedback on: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities
[9:02pm] Emw: isn't there a developers' workshop in berlin running tomorrow through friday?
[9:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: yep
[9:02pm] eekim: yup
[9:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: and chapters after that
[9:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: colocating.
[9:02pm] eekim: btw, nice job with the counter, Emw
[9:02pm] eekim: it was you, right?
[9:02pm] Emw: yes
[9:02pm] eekim: great idea
[9:02pm] eekim: got a lot of people fired up
[9:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: Emw = sweet counter.
[9:03pm] Mikemoral: Oh, I forgot about the LQT. I'm used to the en.wikinews lqt.
[9:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: me <3 LTQ
[9:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: LQT, too
[9:03pm] eekim: how is it different?
[9:03pm] Mikemoral: It's great.
[9:03pm] Emw: it still needs more complete data, and getting that depends on henrik's willingness to push his data sets to a wikimedia server
[9:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: (PS, ya'll.... Tomasz and TimStarling made dumps work! the full Wikipedia dump! Buy 'em beer!)
[9:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mikemoral: What do you mean by "it's great"? What's diff?
[9:06pm] Mikemoral: What?
[9:07pm] eekim: lqt on wikinews vs strategy
[9:07pm] Mikemoral: Oh, LQT is great. I like it a lot.
[9:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: what he said.
[9:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: but how's it different on wikinews from strategy? what makes it different there?
[9:07pm] Mikemoral: Umm, I think we have some js customization, I dunno.
[9:07pm] Mikemoral: Ask bawolff.
[9:07pm] Mikemoral: He does all that js stuff.
[9:08pm] eekim: i'll go check it out. you've piqued my curiosity.
[9:08pm] Mikemoral: (And again, I think)
[9:08pm] Mikemoral: Oh he was working on the reader feedback form.
[9:09pm] Mikemoral: Look at the bottom of http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Vatican_criticized_for_cardinal%27s_claim_of_homosexuality_and_pedophilia_link
[9:09pm] eekim: interesting. only have it set up as "opinions" for articles
[9:09pm] NewYorker joined the chat room.
[9:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, it's just in the opinions namespace
[9:10pm] eekim: hi NewYorker
[9:10pm] Mikemoral: I think it should be in the talk namespaces, but it's not.
[9:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: hmmmmmm, is that readerfeedback they've got running with it?
[9:10pm] Mikemoral: yes.
[9:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: sweet
[9:11pm] apergos joined the chat room.
[9:11pm] NewYorker: sup
[9:11pm] eekim: hey apergos
[9:11pm] apergos: lurkin'
[9:11pm] eekim: that readerfeedback implementation is much better than ours
[9:11pm] eekim: can we steal it?
[9:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: yo, apergos
[9:11pm] NewYorker: Yes, lurking.
[9:12pm] apergos: yo
[9:12pm] Mikemoral: Darns it, I blocked myself on Wikinews.
[9:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, it;s much sweeter. and eekim.... free license and such.
[9:12pm] Mikemoral: MediaWiki:Feeback-gadge hack .js or what ever.
[9:12pm] Mikemoral: Try http://enwn.net/784d6
[9:13pm] eekim: we'll ping werdna to get it installed
[9:13pm] YellowMonkey joined the chat room.
[9:13pm] eekim: beautiful; look at those stats
[9:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: eekim: i've found it's most effective to hit him really hard, then offer booze.
[9:13pm] eekim: that's the way to do it; install, measure, compare
[9:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: i'm just sayin.
[9:13pm] Mikemoral: Is there a renaming policy on strategy?
[9:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mikemoral: the policy is, if it makes sense, do it.
[9:14pm] eekim: Mikemoral, love that you guys have your own url shortener also
[9:14pm] Mikemoral: Thank Shakata/
[9:14pm] NewYorker: Could I make a suggestion that we write protect all articles for notable people?
[9:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: i didn't know about enwn. i knew about enwp
[9:14pm] eekim: i will next time i see him
[9:14pm] Mikemoral: :[:[Wikinews:Tech]]
[9:14pm] Jamesofur joined the chat room.
[9:14pm] Mikemoral: en.wp is a semi-shortener.
[9:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: NewYorker: It's a good suggestion. It's been advanced, and frankly, I think it's logical. I'm gonna pass it on to Keegan, if that's okay.
[9:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan is running a Biographies of Living People task force at the Foundation's request.
[9:15pm] NewYorker: 83% of vandalism on Wikipedia is notable people.
[9:15pm] Mikemoral: Is there a 'crat to rename me? http://enwn.net/70FA2
[9:15pm] NewYorker: Okay.
[9:15pm] eekim: NewYorker, http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Living_People
[9:15pm] zscout370 left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)
[9:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mikemoral: I'm pming you
[9:16pm] eekim: NewYorker, where's that stat from?
[9:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: NewYorker: Is that a hard stat, or an approximation?
[9:20pm] eekim: thanks for your post to strategy wiki, Mikemoral: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities
[9:20pm] eekim: two responses here
[9:20pm] NewYorker: Sorry, I have a bad habit of making up statistics.
[9:20pm] eekim: first, there's a task force set up to discuss content scope. you should definitely check it out: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Content_scope
[9:21pm] eekim: second, who's responsibility is it to promote smaller projects like wikinews?
[9:21pm] eekim: and what sort of work would you like to see?
[9:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: hmmm... can i focus on the first part of that?
[9:26pm] eekim: of course
[9:26pm] Mikemoral: The smaller projects?
[9:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: I think it's everyone's reponsibility to promote wikinews. I promote the hell out of wiktionary and wikiversity and (my new favorite project) wikisource
[9:26pm] apergos: good, they need it
[9:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: (btw, i <3 the fact that I found the complete text of executive orders on wikisource). that made me VERY happy.
[9:27pm] eekim: i think that's a good answer
[9:27pm] apergos: I think a lot of the time we have no idea who uses these projects til they show up cited in some academic text someplace
[9:27pm] eekim: that's a good point
[9:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: apergos: have you dug around wkisource? you're geeky enough to get VERY happy by it.
[9:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: It really excited me.
[9:27pm] apergos: I found yesterday a ref to a page on en wikibooks in a greek linguistics textbook for cripes sakes
[9:27pm] eekim: i think projects could be more aggressive about surveying readers
[9:28pm] eekim: finding out why people go there and what they do
[9:28pm] apergos: this sort of stuf fjust randomly happens but we don't get wind of it
[9:28pm] Mikemoral: Stuff like http://enwn.net/234 should help Wikinews get more readers. I remember checking the hits, it was over 250 (a lot for Wikinews) in the first hour.
[9:28pm] apergos: in the meantime people say "well I don't use it, and the community is small so it must not be important"
[9:29pm] apergos: impressive!
[9:29pm] eekim: brb
[9:30pm] Philippe|Wiki: eekim: I know that there's a serious push at WMF to do some significant reader surveys of the type that you mention. That's a real attraction for me (and, frankly, anyone on staff who's data driven)
[9:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: apergos: I really hate that mentality. The truth is, Wikisource is important to me because i found something there that i love.
[9:31pm] apergos: I'm invested in several projects for similar reasons
[9:31pm] Mikemoral: Wikisource is another great project. Working on the indecies of the books is fun.
[9:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: whether that's enough to justify funding.... <shrug> i know that it's important to me. And when I re-up my donation this year, i'll put "wikisource" on it.
[9:31pm] apergos: but that's not how "results" are judged at the moment
[9:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: how do you think results are judged?
[9:32pm] apergos: ad hoc
[9:32pm] apergos: anecdotally
[9:32pm] apergos: (for all buyt pedia)
[9:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: talk more about that?
[9:32pm] apergos: certain projects have a reputation as being small and useless
[9:33pm] apergos: that is a disincentive to gather real stats
[9:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: that's sad. i can tell you that from a strategy perspective, our push is "real stats, for all the projects"
[9:33pm] apergos: (stats btw != just the number of readers and editors
[9:33pm] apergos: *why* they read is also important, and how the info is used)
[9:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: apergos: so that speaks to the reader survey that eekim mentioned, yes?
[9:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: or how else would you think about getting htat data? that's the real question
[9:34pm] apergos: btw this is not a comment on our official statistician who does great work
[9:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: of course not. <3 Erik Z
[9:34pm] apergos: yup
[9:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: the magic that Erik Z works is amazing.
[9:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: for data driven people... it's like candy
[9:34pm] apergos: a reader survey is good, let's make sure we get a good range of questions in there
[9:34pm] apergos: 5 people reading to settle bar bets is one thing
[9:34pm] Emw: real data for all projects would be great
[9:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: apergos: so when it comes time to design that, I can count on you?
[9:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: And Emw?
[9:35pm] Mikemoral: A reader survey sounds like a great idea.
[9:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: oooh, and Mikemoral
[9:35pm] apergos: 5 people reading to use the information in sources that are referenced by others in their academic field is another (etc)
[9:35pm] apergos: well, when it comes time to design it you can count on people who know about designing those
[9:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: apergos: are the bar bet people less important than the academics? (me says this, having lambasted eekim for socratic questioning earlier today)
[9:35pm] apergos: I would do an off the cuff job which would not be effective, since I don't have that expertise
[9:36pm] apergos: in the long run we want to target both groups
[9:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: i love that answer.
[9:36pm] apergos: but, in the short run it would be easier to make a case for the importance or reach of a project given things like the second group.
[9:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: The trick is, how do we do it? I think it's so important that we get both groups... and everything in between, including my dear friend Casey who uses the 'pedia to get composer death/birth dates, and me, who uses 'source to get the text of executive orders.
[9:37pm] NewYorker: Also, I almost forgot. Does Wikipedia allow people to develop their own bots to detect vandalism and fix it?
[9:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: sure.
[9:37pm] apergos: if jimbo had started out saying "I'm going to make a web site to help settle bar bets" it might have been very popular... but very different
[9:37pm] Emw: NewYorker: yes, see WP:Bot
[9:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: apergos: i'd give $5 to that site... .but $10 per month? Nah.
[9:37pm] apergos: hahaha
[9:38pm] Philippe|Wiki: (all pledges are approximate)
[9:38pm] • apergos shuts up for awhile and goes back to lurking so others can speak up
[9:38pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mikemoral: you're a wikinews person: why do people use Wikinews?
[9:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: beyond the obvious " for news " - why wikinews and not cnn?
[9:39pm] Mikemoral: Well, Wikinews is not a bias load of fluff.
[9:40pm] Mikemoral: We report real non-celeberty news.
[9:40pm] NewYorker: Why wikinews and not quippd?
[9:40pm] Mikemoral: We write the more obscure news not too often seen in the main stream media.
[9:41pm] NewYorker: Mikemoral: Are you journalism majors?
[9:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: keep going?
[9:41pm] Mikemoral: Then there's the many ways to read it. Facebook, Twitter, etc.
[9:41pm] Mikemoral: (Well, twiiter for the headlines)
[9:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: okay, but again... Why Wikinews?
[9:42pm] Mikemoral: NewYorker: No.
[9:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: why wikinews and not drudge?
[9:43pm] Mikemoral: Becuase Wikinews needs you! Anyone can write, we get stories from anons (not often published however) and other all wanting to report the news.
[9:43pm] Mikemoral: *others
[9:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: so why do you think stories from anons aren't frequently published
[9:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: ?
[9:43pm] eekim: sorry folks, i'm back
[9:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: wb, eekim
[9:44pm] apergos: please tell me it's not the trust issue ... that poisons the attitude of admins on other projects
[9:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mikemoral: is that it?
[9:44pm] Mikemoral: Bad grammar, not stylistically correct, etc.
[9:44pm] Keegan joined the chat room.
[9:44pm] apergos: can't that stuff be cleaned up?
[9:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: ahhh... can those things be fixed and keep the story?
[9:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: what apergos said
[9:44pm] eekim: wow, all sorts of discussion happens after i leave
[9:44pm] Keegan: Hmmm?
[9:45pm] Mikemoral: Well, we tend to have a laziness issue.
[9:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan: welcome
[9:45pm] eekim: hey keegan
[9:45pm] Keegan: Hi everybody
[9:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: NewYorker: Keegan'syour guy for BLPs )
[9:45pm] Philippe|Wiki:
[9:45pm] Keegan: Wheeee
[9:46pm] eekim: on making the case for projects...
[9:47pm] eekim: we should be more rigorous than page counts and active contributors
[9:47pm] ekimmargni: Mikemoral: Are you sure it is a laziness issue and not simply a shortage of manpower?
[9:47pm] eekim: however, projects need to take responsibility for this
[9:47pm] eekim: wikinews has been one of the more innovative projects
[9:47pm] eekim: for that alone, it's valuable
[9:48pm] Mikemoral: And manpower too, yes.
[9:48pm] eekim: strategy has borrowed many things from wikinews: DynamicPageList, ReaderFeedback
[9:48pm] eekim: and not surprisingly, we're the only two projects using LQT
[9:48pm] eekim: but at the end of the day, projects need to take responsibility for their promotion
[9:49pm] Mikemoral: We have had OR since before I joined. There's an accrediation policy.
[9:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: Have i mentioned how much i love DPL, by the way??
[9:49pm] apergos: I dunno eekim
[9:49pm] Mikemoral: I know, right? It has image support now.
[9:49pm] apergos: wp doesn't need to take responsibility for its promotion
[9:49pm] apergos: cause it has these official projects of the foundation (for example)
[9:49pm] apergos: that back it
[9:49pm] apergos: and promote it
[9:50pm] apergos: and yet it has the most people to do promotion
[9:50pm] eekim: all projects get access to WMF infrastructure and branding. they all get listed from all the project pages.
[9:50pm] apergos: bookshelf project, usability project
[9:50pm] apergos: targeted primarily to wp needs
[9:50pm] eekim: one of the outcomes of the strategy process is that the Foundation should focus on things that have wide impact
[9:50pm] eekim: usability affects much more than wp
[9:51pm] eekim: multimedia usability is focused exclusively on Commons
[9:51pm] apergos: yes but it was done with wp editing styles in mind
[9:51pm] eekim: which in turn affects all projects
[9:51pm] eekim: so now we face a hard issue
[9:51pm] eekim: wiktionary, for example, could use a redesigned interface tailored to writing dictionary entries
[9:51pm] eekim: who should do that work?
[9:52pm] Mikemoral: Ugh, that's a pain to edit.
[9:52pm] Mikemoral: I admit.
[9:52pm] apergos: well what it could use is not to have an interface dropped on it that will make it weirder/harder to edit (I'm thnking of the collapsed template stuff
[9:52pm] eekim: given the foundation's limited resources, if it invests there, that means it can't invest elsewhere. so by what criteria should it make its decision?
[9:52pm] apergos: which is going to be an obstacle)
[9:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: apergos: whata bout the fact that vector rolled out to commons first?
[9:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: (after strategy, btw)
[9:52pm] Mikemoral: Does commons have DPL?
[9:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mikemoral: good question
[9:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: i dont know
[9:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: i'll check tho
[9:53pm] apergos: so what I would argue is not that wikt should get targeted features
[9:53pm] apergos: but that wp should not .
[9:53pm] apergos: see the difference?
[9:53pm] eekim: easier said than done
[9:53pm] apergos: vector rolled out there because it needed to be rolled out somewhere smaller than en pedia for a test case
[9:53pm] Mikemoral: DPL has a gallery thing and it would be great for commons.
[9:53pm] apergos: a very logical decision.
[9:53pm] eekim: i think you could argue that vector affects many more projects positively than it does negatively
[9:54pm] apergos: I think vector as it is has a number of good features which will be useful to all the projects
[9:54pm] apergos: however, it will have some things in it (unless the approach is broadened) that help wp and will be somewhat obnoxious elsewhere
[9:54pm] apergos: because a choice was made to focus on wp editing/reading needs.
[9:55pm] apergos: instead of being "project neutral"
[9:55pm] apergos: now that might be a feature of the grant...
[9:55pm] NewYorker: I don't want to sound too upset, but my biggest concern is, why do you guys keep deleting Lorenzo von Matterhorn?
[9:55pm] Mikemoral: Vector positivly affect Wikinews, imo. It's aestectically pleasing and have easy to use features.
[9:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: NewYorker: by "you guys", do you mean wikipedia?
[9:55pm] eekim: when you're trying to have broad impact and when you have a heterogenous set of projects, it's hard to be truly project neutral
[9:55pm] NewYorker: Yeah
[9:55pm] eekim: i hear you, apergos
[9:55pm] apergos: but one can make a stab at it, if that is the mandate one adopts
[9:56pm] eekim: i didn't realize that vector would have an adverse effect on wiktionary
[9:56pm] apergos: anywyas, time to lurk again, takin up too much space
[9:56pm] eekim: that sucks
[9:56pm] eekim: no way, you've been great
[9:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: NewYorker: here's the thing: dunno. This project is about issues other than WP policy.
[9:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: i honestly don't know the answer to that.
[9:56pm] eekim: we need to be conscious about these things
[9:56pm] apergos: (not vector as it is, but features currently in development. just ot be clear)
[9:56pm] eekim: we need to do things with intention, and when we make hard decisions, we need to do them with humility
[9:57pm] NewYorker: Philippe|Wiki: Ah, I see.
[9:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: NewYorker: We're dealing specifically with issues of wikimedia strategic planning. #wikipedia-en deals with that but i'm really really hoping you'll stay and talk about the meta issues
[9:58pm] NewYorker: Okay.
[9:58pm] eekim: apergos, if you get a chance, jump in at: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Content_scope
[9:58pm] eekim: would be good to get some of this feedback there
[9:58pm] eekim: i'll link to the logs once they're up
[9:59pm] NewYorker: Well, I'm tired from coding so I'm going to sleeplurk.
[9:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: i'll post them in.... 3 minutes
[9:59pm] eekim: office hours ends in a few anyway, NewYorker. thanks much for participating!
[9:59pm] apergos: where can I post a 1 para thing about mission statements and visions actually?
[9:59pm] eekim: for what? for wikimedia as a whole?
[10:00pm] apergos: um well the wmf mission and then what my realization of that owuld look like as a user
[10:00pm] apergos: *would
[10:00pm] eekim: best place to start that conversation would be: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Task_force/Strategy
[10:00pm] eekim: and on that note, it's time to end office hours
[10:00pm] eekim: thanks everybody for great conversation
[10:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: srsly
[10:01pm] eekim: have a good night / day (depending on where you are)
[10:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: i wish we could stay longer... but we have early flights
[10:01pm] eekim: see you on strategy wiki
[10:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: thanks, gang
[10:01pm] Mikemoral: G'Night.
[10:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: you rock