IRC office hours/2010-04-28

Philippe|Wiki: OK, so shall we get started?

[11:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: How's everyone tonight?

[11:02pm] Mikemoral: Fine.

[11:02pm] • jeremyb is /away for the night

[11:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: enjoy that, jeremyb

[11:02pm] jeremyb: thanks

[11:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: So I guess as just a quick update on where we are in the process, and then any discussion... we're starting the home stretch on the strategy plan. There are still a ccouple of really important task forces working...

[11:03pm] Sigma7 joined the chat room.

[11:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: the strategy task force, the content scope taskforce, and the BLP task force come to mind immediately.

[11:03pm] Tempodivalse joined the chat room.

[11:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: There's a really interesting discussion about goals happening on strategy task force...

[11:03pm] eekim joined the chat room.

[11:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: if you havent taken a look at those things, they're all linked from the task forces page

[11:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hey eekim

[11:04pm] eekim: hi everybody

[11:04pm] eekim: sorry i'm late

[11:04pm] Jamesofur: YOUR LATE!

[11:04pm] Jamesofur: oh damn

[11:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: no prob... i was just reminding folks to check out stratey task force, content scope, and blp

[11:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: and mentioned the goals conversation

[11:04pm] eekim: thx

[11:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: so it's all yours now

[11:04pm] eekim: all mine?!

[11:04pm] Jamesofur: do we have any time frame in mind? (for the end)

[11:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: and pay no attention to Jamesofur .... he's drunk

[11:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: something about his third guiness

[11:04pm] eekim: office hours are always an hour

[11:05pm] Jamesofur: not yet!

[11:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: heh, i think he meant the strategy project, eekim

[11:05pm] Tempodivalse left the chat room.

[11:05pm] Jamesofur: yes, that

[11:05pm] eekim: ah, right

[11:05pm] eekim: process will be complete by wikimania 2010

[11:06pm] Jamesofur: ahh nice, thank you

[11:06pm] eekim: we're going to do a big push next week to get folks to look at the Movement Priorities: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities

[11:06pm] eekim: would really encourage people to go check it out and comment now

[11:07pm] Prodego joined the chat room.

[11:07pm] Prodego: zomg strategy

[11:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: Prodego

[11:07pm] Prodego: we should flank them

[11:07pm] Prodego: or perhaps, do a barrel roll

[11:07pm] DanielB joined the chat room.

[11:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: those are tactics, Prodego

[11:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: totally different

[11:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: eekim, do I see a new movement priority on there?

[11:08pm] Prodego: we should design the capability to do barrel rolls then?

[11:08pm] eekim: not yet

[11:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: Prodego: that's engineering

[11:08pm] Prodego: I'll work on it

[11:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities#Reduce_community_conflict_and_stagnation

[11:08pm] eekim: was thinking about some comments Randomran made on the Talk page

[11:08pm] eekim: nope, Randomran added that

[11:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: that's the one I was thinking of

[11:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: ah

[11:08pm] DanielB left the chat room. ("Leaving")

[11:08pm] eekim: that was the basis of our conversation earlier today

[11:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, okay

[11:09pm] Philippe|Wiki:

[11:09pm] eekim: as one of our priorities, we're thinking about saying something about reminding the community about our five pillars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars

[11:09pm] eekim: would love to hear people's thoughts

[11:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm going to ask a totally naive question that I should know the answer to... do non-'pedia projects have the 5 pillars?

[11:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: or a modified version thereof?

[11:13pm] Mikemoral: En.wikinews does not.

[11:13pm] eekim: do you have something similar?

[11:14pm] Mikemoral: I don't think so. Then again I have to finish skimming all the policy.

[11:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: looks like Wiktionary doesn't either

[11:14pm] eekim: do folks here feel like the pillars apply to their (non-wp) projects?

[11:15pm] Mikemoral: Oh wait, there's the core policies. http://enwn.net/A3379

[11:15pm] Jamesofur: In general yes but obviously the first one especially would need reworking at alot of non-pedia projects

[11:16pm] Ashlee: I'm hungry.

[11:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: and NPOV doesn't apply on all the projects either

[11:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: Wikisource for instance

[11:16pm] eekim: what about the last three? do those seem universal?

[11:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: so, 3, 4, and 5 probably do

[11:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: i'm fond of #3

[11:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: actually, i meant 4

[11:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: but i'm fond of 3 too

[11:18pm] eekim: 3 is a given

[11:18pm] eekim: 4 and 5 are the ones I think we need to call out

[11:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: 3 ties nicely to our http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_that_need_to_be_free

[11:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: i like 4 a lot tho. it's the one that concerns me quite a lot.

[11:19pm] Mikemoral: 4 is rather relaxed on wikinews.

[11:19pm] eekim: how do you mean?

[11:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mikemoral: what do u mean?

[11:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: heh, what eekim said

[11:19pm] Mikemoral: Well, we're a bit more blunt about things on wiki.

[11:19pm] robla left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[11:20pm] eekim: blunt does not necessarily imply disrespectful and civil

[11:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: heh... acutally, yeah. i'm thinking back to some of the stuff i've seen on there

[11:21pm] Mikemoral: My favorite block reason, "Please boil your head."

[11:22pm] eekim: heh

[11:22pm] eekim: Mikemoral, do you think people would disagree with 4 as a principle on en.wn (even if it's not widely practiced right now)?

[11:22pm] robla joined the chat room.

[11:22pm] Herodotus joined the chat room.

[11:22pm] Mikemoral: No. It is a guideline.

[11:22pm] Herodotus: Philippe|Wiki: Who has office hours at midnight?

[11:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: Herodotus: it's morning in Europe

[11:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: and afternoon in Asia

[11:23pm] Mikemoral: It's not midnight.

[11:23pm] Herodotus: Still!

[11:23pm] Mikemoral: 21ish for me.

[11:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: and next week, office hours change to the other time... 4PM EDT

[11:23pm] eekim: Herodotus, we rotate our office hours every week

[11:24pm] Herodotus: Heh. I figured there had to be something like that.

[11:24pm] GerardM-: the word of the day .. sleep deprivation ... http://www.omegawiki.org

[11:24pm] eekim: hey GerardM-

[11:25pm] GerardM-: wrote another beaut for you on my blog

[11:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: isn't that two words?

[11:25pm] GerardM-: one concept

[11:25pm] GerardM-: in Dutch it is one word slaapdeprivaite

[11:26pm] GerardM-: <grin> we also do proverps

[11:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, so we think that the fourth pillar wouldn't be a huge leap for anyone?

[11:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: even the "boil 'em in oil" newsies?

[11:27pm] eekim: very nice, GerardM-

[11:27pm] eekim: your blog post, that is

[11:31pm] GerardM-: Thanks

[11:33pm] GerardM-: going back to sleep

[11:33pm] eekim: thanks for dropping in

[11:33pm] eekim: have a good night

[11:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: see ya later, GerardM-

[11:36pm] Mikemoral: And my other favorite block reason for User:I'm a little teapot, "Nope, but you're a little pest. Cheerio!"

[11:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: someone's been hanging out on uncyclopedia too long

[11:37pm] Mikemoral:

[11:37pm] eekim: i confess, i enjoy that, but it's probably not so conducive to welcoming newcomers

[11:38pm] Prodego: no, its not

[11:38pm] Mikemoral: We have a bot to welcome people.

[11:38pm] Prodego: stuff like that is going to come back to bite us

[11:38pm] eekim: definitely

[11:38pm] • Jamesofur nods

[11:39pm] Jamesofur: going to, it has and I'm sure will

[11:39pm] Prodego: I personally wouldn't put up with a blockreason like that

[11:39pm] sj| joined the chat room.

[11:39pm] sj| left the chat room. (Changing host)

[11:39pm] sj| joined the chat room.

[11:39pm] Mikemoral: Well, these IPs are really asking for it, tbh.

[11:39pm] eekim: hey sj!

[11:40pm] eekim: seems like we agree that civility/respect is an important principle across all projects

[11:40pm] eekim: something we want to emphasize and improve across all projects

[11:41pm] • Jamesofur nods

[11:41pm] Jamesofur: helps to encourage and keep new users

[11:41pm] Jamesofur: (and old for that matter)

[11:41pm] eekim: absolutely

[11:41pm] Jamesofur: if you look at the people who are leaving it almost always comes down to something they see in peoples reactions to them

[11:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: actually, we've got some analysis around that

[11:42pm] Jamesofur: sometimes we may feel their concern isn't valid but it in their minds it is

[11:42pm] Prodego: I find newer people in general are less nice to newer people

[11:42pm] Prodego: and I think that has always been true

[11:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Former_Contributors_Survey_Results

[11:42pm] Prodego: but I have no data to back that up at all

[11:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: if you haven't read that stuff, do.

[11:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: it's fascinating

[11:43pm] Prodego: I've read that, the problem is you really don't know who, why, and how many of those people are crazy

[11:43pm] eekim: Assume Good Faith

[11:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: and it's a pretty big sample size

[11:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: that usually comes out in the wash

[11:44pm] Prodego: its one thing to say "this is a problem", its another to say what is causing it

[11:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: have you seen random ran's new stuff on it?

[11:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: i really love it

[11:45pm] Prodego: Philippe|Wiki: word visualization?

[11:46pm] Prodego: seriously?

[11:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: word analysis, yes

[11:46pm] Prodego: sigh

[11:47pm] Prodego: well what that tells you is the not very suprising everyone wants something done their way fact

[11:47pm] Prodego: Community is more interesting

[11:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: go on?

[11:48pm] Prodego: well presumably if people see themselves are part of the community, they are more positive about it

[11:49pm] Prodego: or does anyone ever really think they are part of a community?

[11:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: Jay's been using the word "society", which I like better

[11:49pm] Prodego: there is probably more of a 'community' in IRC channels, mailing lists, etc, than in Wiki*edia itself

[11:50pm] Prodego: there is very little interaction with others that isn't arguing over something, not always in a heated way, but

[11:50pm] Philippe|Wiki: hmmm, i'm thinking back to when I started... I actually had a couple of mentors that were fantastic... Merope

[11:50pm] Philippe|Wiki: and FisherQueen

[11:50pm] Philippe|Wiki: I saw them as part of the community

[11:50pm] Prodego: I did as well

[11:51pm] Prodego: and I don't think that happens /as much/ anymore

[11:51pm] Prodego: but its hard to say

[11:51pm] Prodego: the rules were insanely confusing though

[11:51pm] Prodego: plus the help pages were terrible back then

[11:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: "were"?

[11:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: I posit they still are

[11:52pm] Prodego: they are much better now

[11:52pm] eekim: emphasizing pillar 5 would help

[11:52pm] Mikemoral: TO comment, I've noticed a deteriation of the en.wiki community from when I joined back in '07.

[11:52pm] eekim: the strategic question: how do we turn this around?

[11:52pm] Jamesofur: I think the effect of "random chit chat" on trust is underappreciated

[11:52pm] Prodego: Philippe|Wiki: I mean try finding something in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:Contents&oldid=33419405

[11:52pm] Jamesofur: which is why those who are on IRC/mailing lists etc tend to become more of a "community" then others

[11:53pm] eekim: agreed. speaks to some people's opposition to "social features"

[11:53pm] Jamesofur: and tend to trust the others around them more in the end

[11:53pm] • Jamesofur nods

[11:53pm] Jamesofur: I understand where they are coming from but I think parts of it are misguided, you don't want to make it ALL but they do have an important part to play imo

[11:53pm] Prodego: Mikemoral: perhaps. But you also move up in the community. So that means you are looking down on increasing numbers of people who are not at your level

[11:53pm] eekim: agreed, Jamesofur

[11:53pm] Prodego: that can make things seem worse, even though really you are just better

[11:54pm] Prodego: I don't think that's entirely the case here though, personally

[11:54pm] Mikemoral: Prodego, true.

[11:55pm] Mikemoral: But even now, all I ever do on wiki is matainence here-and-there and huggle.

[11:57pm] eekim: we have a few more minutes before office hours are over

[11:58pm] eekim: it would be really great if folks here would comment/contribute to the movement priorities page: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities

[11:59pm] Sigma7 left the chat room. (Quit: IceChat 2009 Developer Edition)

[11:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, on that note... i'm out. it's been a heckuva long day.

[11:59pm] eekim: me too

[11:59pm] eekim: thanks everyone for another good office hours

[11:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: See ya'll later!

[11:59pm] Mikemoral: bye

[11:59pm] eekim: bye

[12:00am] eekim left the chat room.