IRC office hours/2009-08-18

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[2009-08-18 14::56:32] Philippe|Wiki: ****************** For the record, this chat is being logged and will be posted for future reference. If you have a comment you'd like me to post anonymously on your behalf, please msg me private *****************

[2009-08-18 14::56:36] I_am_Keegan: pulls up a chair with a cup of coffee

[2009-08-18 14::57:03] Philippe|Wiki: illllion, the Foundation has a very small professional staff. But jobs are posted on our website, wikimediafoundation.org

[2009-08-18 14::57:49] » gmaxwell joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 14::58:05] Philippe|Wiki: hey gmaxwell :)

[2009-08-18 14::58:12] gmaxwell: Hello.

[2009-08-18 14::58:23] » Bair joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 14::58:30] Philippe|Wiki: Hi Bair, welcome back

[2009-08-18 14::58:34] Bair: ty

[2009-08-18 14::58:53] Philippe|Wiki: Eptalon was saying that s/he thinks an effort should be made to intensify collaboration bw different langeuage wikis....

[2009-08-18 14::59:01] » cubs197 joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 14::59:05] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: well, my 'home' wiki is 'Simple English' wikipedia; many 'Regular English' laguage editors look down on it, because it focuses on 'simple' Engliosh, that aims to be easier to understand, by avoiding long sentences and ambiguous words (with multiple meanings)

[2009-08-18 14::59:10] Philippe|Wiki: hi cubs197

[2009-08-18 14::59:14] » chzz joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 14::59:18] cubs197: Hello

[2009-08-18 14::59:23] Philippe|Wiki: Right, I'm familiar with Simple. :-)

[2009-08-18 14::59:34] cubs197: Um, what do we do here :)

[2009-08-18 14::59:52] Bair: yeah, do they even have most wanted redlinks in non-en wikis? not that en's is current because of the dump problems

[2009-08-18 15::00:01] Philippe|Wiki: cubs197: This chat is a weekly opportunity to talk to the Foundation's strategic planning staff and share ideas or thoughts.

[2009-08-18 15::00:24] cubs197: Oh, cool, thanks for leting me know.

[2009-08-18 15::00:27] Philippe|Wiki: No problem :)

[2009-08-18 15::00:33] Tango42: I was an admin on Simple years ago (desysopped due to inactivity) - it seems lots of outsiders think it is about dumbing down the content, which it certainly wasn't when I was there

[2009-08-18 15::00:44] Bair: I love the simple english wp, that also needs to be i18ned

[2009-08-18 15::00:44] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: it has a team of about 30 editors (most of them admins), and is stagnant when it comes to getting new (high-volume) contributors. Yet it is positioned in such a way that it could appeal to many language wikis, or as a tool to help translation.

[2009-08-18 15::00:46] Philippe|Wiki: (by the way, everyone, Eugene will be along, but he had a lunch meeting, so it's just me)

[2009-08-18 15::00:53] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: can we conduct a poll to count how many people have read all the proposals?

[2009-08-18 15::01:16] Tango42: All? Not me. All the ones that had interesting titles, though.

[2009-08-18 15::01:26] Philippe|Wiki: lol, gmaxwell, I'm afraid I'm probably the only one

[2009-08-18 15::01:26] Tango42: (As of a few hours ago, at least)

[2009-08-18 15::01:36] I_am_Keegan: Well, along the collaboration issue...

[2009-08-18 15::01:38] eptalon: Proposals? - You mean there is reading required?

[2009-08-18 15::01:41] Philippe|Wiki: eptalon, so you're looking at positioning?

[2009-08-18 15::01:53] Bair: I'm currrent as of maybe a day ago

[2009-08-18 15::01:55] Philippe|Wiki: There are proposals at http://strategy.wikimedia.org ; ideas that people have suggested

[2009-08-18 15::02:03] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: I read all of them as of a bit over a week ago. ... and made notes to leave comments on many of them. But then I came back and there were a zillion more.

[2009-08-18 15::02:08] I_am_Keegan: I've been working with an it.wiki admin about an ongoing issue (for 3 years) that's spilling over onto en.wiki

[2009-08-18 15::02:21] gmaxwell: Plus people having arguments over the troll proposals I wrote (oops)

[2009-08-18 15::02:27] Philippe|Wiki: gmaxwell: annemarie got us a cool little categorization system, so it's much easier now

[2009-08-18 15::02:29] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: I am looking at ways to increase the active user base of that wiki; one tool we have is positioning.

[2009-08-18 15::02:33] gmaxwell: I don't know how anyone could keep up with them...

[2009-08-18 15::02:40] Tango42: Some good, some not so good, and most not really relevant to the strategy plan, but some constructive discussion is going on there

[2009-08-18 15::02:41] I_am_Keegan: I don't speak Italian, and I have no idea how to get ahold of an it.wiki admin. The problem was converse for the it.wiki admin I've been assisting

[2009-08-18 15::03:13] Bair: there is a strategy plan? url please

[2009-08-18 15::03:18] I_am_Keegan: Meta serves no central authority for these cross-wiki issues

[2009-08-18 15::03:21] Philippe|Wiki: Tango, actually, I want to address that: i think that even those that don't appear immediately relevant to strategic thinking are critical at this point. In order to determine what the strategic issues are, we have to work from the tactical level.

[2009-08-18 15::03:31] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: What I suggest in a more general way is that languages that are close should look at ways to enhance collaboration (eg. Spanish/Portuguese/Italian)

[2009-08-18 15::03:35] Philippe|Wiki: Bair, there isn't yet.... we're working with the community to write it :)

[2009-08-18 15::03:46] I_am_Keegan: eptalon: I agree

[2009-08-18 15::03:56] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: I noticed a number of proposals were for existing functionality.

[2009-08-18 15::03:59] [MarkW]: Bair: It's in development, and you're all invited to help writing proposals at http://strategy.wikimedia.org

[2009-08-18 15::04:04] Philippe|Wiki: gmaxwell: yep.

[2009-08-18 15::04:32] eptalon: I_am_Keegan: this would mean, that eg. in the spanish lanhuage version you 'highlight' the italian/portuguese IWs

[2009-08-18 15::04:34] Bair: gmaxwell: there is now a category s/new features/existing features

[2009-08-18 15::04:36] chzz: Philippe|Wiki FWIW, and apols if inappropriate: a) I know from personal experience that Simple is extremely useful to Eng Second Language students, as part of their learning and as a resource, and b) I feel that the problem w/ Simple is that it attracts writers whose Eng is not great when, in reality, it needs the very best editors - it takes great skill to write plain Eng

[2009-08-18 15::05:06] Philippe|Wiki: chzz, that's not inappropriate. :) There generally are no "rules" in here. Just be nice :)

[2009-08-18 15::05:06] I_am_Keegan: There was an OTRS ticket that needed a Bulgarian wiki admin. I didn't handle it because I gave up, but it got taken care of

[2009-08-18 15::05:07] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: I think that we might be seeing a structural problem there— that people are unaware of existing functionality and inititivies.

[2009-08-18 15::05:25] Philippe|Wiki: gmaxwell: funny you should mention that. That made it into my notes last night.

[2009-08-18 15::05:26] illlllion: what is the mission statement of wikipedia?

[2009-08-18 15::05:53] I_am_Keegan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

[2009-08-18 15::05:55] [MarkW]: illlllion: you can find it here: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Mission

[2009-08-18 15::05:55] gmaxwell: illlllion: Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation?

[2009-08-18 15::06:08] eptalon: I_am_Keegan: someone speaking italian has no pobs understanding Spanish...

[2009-08-18 15::06:24] Philippe|Wiki: eptalon, really? I knew they were similiar....

[2009-08-18 15::06:31] I_am_Keegan: eptalon: Aye

[2009-08-18 15::06:48] Philippe|Wiki: what draws a contrast for me, eptalon, is that there are calls for a second portugese wikipedia because of word differentiations....

[2009-08-18 15::07:03] eptalon: It would therefore be possible to 'group' the languages; wikis of languages in the same 'group' should be 'highligted' in some way.

[2009-08-18 15::07:05] Bair: mission: imagine a world where every person has access to the sum toMR GAZDEWICH IS GAY

[2009-08-18 15::07:07] I_am_Keegan: Oh, that Brazilian thing?

[2009-08-18 15::07:17] Philippe|Wiki: ************ Just a reminder for those who may have joined us late: This is a logged chat *****************

[2009-08-18 15::07:40] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: What is the procedure for changing proposals?

[2009-08-18 15::07:45] I_am_Keegan: Anyway, there should be a much better way to say to an admin on another language HEY I NEED HELP

[2009-08-18 15::07:48] Philippe|Wiki: changing how, gmaxwell?

[2009-08-18 15::07:52] chzz: waves; hello mum, etc

[2009-08-18 15::07:52] Bair: just documenting practice, sorry

[2009-08-18 15::07:56] Philippe|Wiki: I_am_Keegan, yes I agree

[2009-08-18 15::08:16] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: for example, http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Filtering_out_vandalism_in_edit_history

[2009-08-18 15::08:24] Philippe|Wiki: I understand, Bair... but you may have hurt poor Mr. Gazdewich :)

[2009-08-18 15::08:46] gmaxwell: I threw out some casual changes on the talk page, people appear to prefer them

[2009-08-18 15::08:51] eptalon: I_am_Keegan: braziollian portuguese is very similar to south american spanis,h but dissimilar to european portuguese.

[2009-08-18 15::08:57] Philippe|Wiki: gmaxwell: BOLD applies.

[2009-08-18 15::09:35] eptalon: I assume that other small wikis probably see the same probs we see at simple.

[2009-08-18 15::09:38] I_am_Keegan: eptalon: Yes I know, there's been a bit of an issue with Portugese folks taking offense to Brasilian accented pt.wiki authorship

[2009-08-18 15::09:47] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: Fine enough. The process seemes to apply some ownership I think? Certantly people are acting that way.

[2009-08-18 15::10:07] Philippe|Wiki: I think some people are acting that way... but let's break those barriers down as quickly as possible.

[2009-08-18 15::10:33] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan: That's a very nice suggestion. Should that just concern IRC or should we have some easy way to all the "help-from-a-sysop" pages on all wikis? (and create those on wikis that don't have them)

[2009-08-18 15::10:54] I_am_Keegan: It should be transparent

[2009-08-18 15::11:06] eptalon: The main problem remains: how do you tell the guys: 'hey folks, if you don't understand it in this language, you could still try these three languages you are likely to understand'?

[2009-08-18 15::11:20] illlllion: what if wikipedia embraces and develops something more interactive... something like google earth

[2009-08-18 15::11:26] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan: In what way?

[2009-08-18 15::11:27] Philippe|Wiki: eptalon, do you think you need to tell them?

[2009-08-18 15::11:29] I_am_Keegan: MarkW: So I'd say a help from a sysop page of some sort, however that would be possible

[2009-08-18 15::11:40] Philippe|Wiki: illlion, can you give me an example?

[2009-08-18 15::11:45] illlllion: the key to the internet is more interaction

[2009-08-18 15::12:08] Philippe|Wiki: so how does that apply in this context?

[2009-08-18 15::12:08] I_am_Keegan: Most wikis have an administrator's noticeboard, perhaps there can be a small link at the top of all the pages to go to a centralized meta page

[2009-08-18 15::12:16] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan: You don't find the #wikimedia-admin channel useful enough? I had some problems finding an es-admin yesterday because they didn't speak English

[2009-08-18 15::12:24] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: In the case of simple english, I think many aren't aware of its existence; but I want the concept 'broader' (eg. Spanish/Port/Italian)..

[2009-08-18 15::12:30] Philippe|Wiki: I_am_Keegan, I can tell you from experience that finding the administrator's noticebaord is a pain in a language you don't know :)

[2009-08-18 15::12:46] I_am_Keegan: Philippe: My point exactly

[2009-08-18 15::12:49] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan: Why not vise versa? Have a meta page with links to all "administrator noticeboards"?

[2009-08-18 15::12:59] I_am_Keegan: That'd be great

[2009-08-18 15::13:09] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: that is easy to remedy: standardised abbrvs/redirects.

[2009-08-18 15::13:14] [MarkW]: And maybe a notice for languages with no, or no active sysops

[2009-08-18 15::13:15] Philippe|Wiki: eptalon, maybe a link to Simple from some difficult to understand 'en' articles?

[2009-08-18 15::13:25] I_am_Keegan: I try to keep admin issues as onwiki as possible considering expedience and privacy

[2009-08-18 15::13:36] Philippe|Wiki: (eptalon, that sounds like a proposal that should be submitted at http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_proposals)

[2009-08-18 15::14:00] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: those that exist, have an IW link. thats not the problem; the problem is to make people aware.

[2009-08-18 15::14:14] Bair: is simple supported by the interwiki bots?

[2009-08-18 15::14:15] » Romaine joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 15::14:29] eptalon: Bair: some do, others don't.

[2009-08-18 15::14:49] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan: So basically we should have a page on meta listing all /most administrator noticeboards?

[2009-08-18 15::14:58] I_am_Keegan: Yup

[2009-08-18 15::15:07] eptalon: which means that you need to 'highlight similar languages, likely to be understood'..?

[2009-08-18 15::15:12] Philippe|Wiki: [MarkW]: I'd also broaden that to include Village Pump/Discussion places

[2009-08-18 15::15:14] I_am_Keegan: Similar to the language list

[2009-08-18 15::15:25] Philippe|Wiki: For instance, when I was posting election notices, some of them didn't get done simply because I coulnd't find them

[2009-08-18 15::15:37] I_am_Keegan: Breton|br|admin board|Village pump

[2009-08-18 15::15:56] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan y Philippe|Wiki: The current interwiki-links aren't helping?

[2009-08-18 15::16:05] Philippe|Wiki: Didn't help me :)

[2009-08-18 15::16:14] eptalon: I_am_Keegan: include the 'abuse-report board'

[2009-08-18 15::16:22] I_am_Keegan: Heh, not if you're trying to get into the nitty gritty and you can't read Latvian

[2009-08-18 15::16:42] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan: You can't read Latvian? Tsk

[2009-08-18 15::16:47] Philippe|Wiki: gmaxwell: on a meta level, can we think for a sec abou tthe requests for features that exist?

[2009-08-18 15::16:56] I_am_Keegan: Hey, at least I know it when I see it...

[2009-08-18 15::16:59] Bair: ANs or Wikipedia:Questions someone from dewiki wants natural language processing, and so does the semantic web proposal, but volunteers are 1000x better than bots for that now

[2009-08-18 15::17:06] » eekim joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 15::17:15] Philippe|Wiki: Hey eekim :) Welcome to the lively group

[2009-08-18 15::17:20] chzz: I_am_Keegan I'd try to keep it simple tho. Even if it's a complex issue, I would've thought a notice on their AN would cover most bases; the users on that wiki would be able to decide appropriate action, where the request should go, etc

[2009-08-18 15::17:22] eekim: howdy, philippe!

[2009-08-18 15::17:24] Philippe|Wiki: Ya'll, say hi to Eugene

[2009-08-18 15::17:35] eekim: hi everybody!

[2009-08-18 15::17:42] I_am_Keegan: Hi Eugene

[2009-08-18 15::17:46] chzz: I_am_Keegan I mean, rather than have links to the diff areas for username vio, spam, etc etc - 'coz each wiki does things their own way

[2009-08-18 15::17:49] I_am_Keegan: Please be careful with the Axe

[2009-08-18 15::17:55] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: you've been quiet today.... what's on your mind?

[2009-08-18 15::17:57] I_am_Keegan: Chzz, right

[2009-08-18 15::18:13] Romaine: Philippe|Wiki: on many wiki's the userportal is used as village pump

[2009-08-18 15::18:15] GerardM-: have been on the phone arragning some stuff for Wikimania

[2009-08-18 15::18:17] [MarkW]: chzz: Ia gree, a link to AN is more than enough, the local sysops should have that page on their watchlist anyway

[2009-08-18 15::18:25] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: thanks for doing that then :)

[2009-08-18 15::18:28] Bair: isn't there a simultanious UK chaper meeting on two other channels?

[2009-08-18 15::18:32] chzz: I_am_Keegan I mean, if some frjhfa-islavan posts to 'our' AN, we'd sort it out, eh? Presume other wikis could do similar

[2009-08-18 15::18:35] Philippe|Wiki: Romaine: That's good to know, and I wish I'd known it

[2009-08-18 15::18:39] Bair: chapter meeting*

[2009-08-18 15::18:44] I_am_Keegan: Chzz: Correct

[2009-08-18 15::18:50] Romaine: the interwiki's between the pumps seem to have trouble in being fixed when I lastly was looking

[2009-08-18 15::19:02] » ragesoss joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 15::19:14] GerardM-: have been busy today reading the recommendations of the GLAM WIKI conference

[2009-08-18 15::19:17] [MarkW]: I guess we have enough to start working on either a proposal OR on a meta-page :P

[2009-08-18 15::19:22] I_am_Keegan: Romaine: you are right, clicking on the interwiki link doesn't always work

[2009-08-18 15::19:30] GerardM-: there are things Where Gregory will find that it is unacceptable

[2009-08-18 15::19:30] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: There are features which exist and are available today; there are also features which exist and are just not currently enabled.

[2009-08-18 15::19:36] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: Is that in a format/place you couldlink it to the strategy wiki?

[2009-08-18 15::19:38] GerardM-: the trick is tha he is right

[2009-08-18 15::19:54] Romaine: nobody (so far I know) has fixed the interwiki's between the pumps and are still leading not right on many places

[2009-08-18 15::19:57] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: I'll look it up.

[2009-08-18 15::20:16] eekim: hi ragesoss!

[2009-08-18 15::20:26] ragesoss: :)

[2009-08-18 15::20:28] I_am_Keegan: MarkW: I'd say just do a meta page, I can't see how a proposal will be anything more than a time waste because I would think that most would agree.

[2009-08-18 15::20:29] GerardM-: Now the trick is to explain to the GLAM why it is not acceptable without blowing up

[2009-08-18 15::20:32] Philippe|Wiki: totally missed seeing ragesoss come in

[2009-08-18 15::20:50] ragesoss: came in the back

[2009-08-18 15::20:52] Philippe|Wiki: I_am_Keegan: the only reason I might do a proposal is to see if others have a better way to do it than the meta page

[2009-08-18 15::21:06] I_am_Keegan: You're the boss, boss ;)

[2009-08-18 15::21:12] Philippe|Wiki: no, i'm not :)

[2009-08-18 15::21:22] I_am_Keegan: You know what I mean

[2009-08-18 15::21:38] Philippe|Wiki: Have you ever been involved in a project at the foundation? There's no boss, because nobody is crazy enough to try to herd these cats :)

[2009-08-18 15::21:40] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: if you do it, you should link both ways, ie. also local language -> meta

[2009-08-18 15::21:50] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan: what Phillipe says, somebody might come up with a great interwiki proposal :P Or even better: somebody else might be interested in making the page so we don't have to :D

[2009-08-18 15::21:51] Philippe|Wiki: eptalon: that's a good poin

[2009-08-18 15::21:53] Bair: some features have profound policy implications, like flagged revisions, etc. We have to balance friendlyness with housekeeping and defense against vandalism

[2009-08-18 15::22:04] I_am_Keegan: prefers the latter

[2009-08-18 15::22:16] Philippe|Wiki: has chosen not to do housekeeping. Oddly, I dont seen to have house elves.

[2009-08-18 15::22:21] [MarkW]: I_am_Keegan: indeed

[2009-08-18 15::22:26] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: And since we are dealing multiple languages/scripts, you should probably use an icon for the meta link.

[2009-08-18 15::22:35] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: Some things aren't enabled for technical reasons; some because communities have opposed; some becuase no one has asked...

[2009-08-18 15::22:44] GerardM-: FYI LocalisationUpdate went life on test.wikipedia.org

[2009-08-18 15::22:53] Philippe|Wiki: Speaking of icons - anyone in here want to make some pretty icons for strategy wiki?

[2009-08-18 15::22:54] GerardM-: have to do something for Brion / Roan

[2009-08-18 15::22:57] Bair: we need another proposal for checking interwiki correctness on important project pages?

[2009-08-18 15::23:01] Philippe|Wiki: okay, Gerard

[2009-08-18 15::23:02] gmaxwell: GerardM-: The magic, I think, for the GLAM stuff is to just stay focused on outcomes.

[2009-08-18 15::23:26] GerardM-: Gregory, the question is what is the most important outcome

[2009-08-18 15::23:35] [MarkW]: Philippe|Wiki: We actually have a lot of pretty icons on Commons, what sort of icons are you looking for?

[2009-08-18 15::23:38] GerardM-: Gregory I agree

[2009-08-18 15::23:47] Philippe|Wiki: ************* Final time I'll do this: this is a reminder that the chat today is logged and will be posted ***********

[2009-08-18 15::24:11] GerardM-: the thing is they want us to use their pictures from their website ... statistics are what we have in exchange for that

[2009-08-18 15::24:18] eptalon: [MarkW]: A generally recognizable one for a link to a common page at meta.

[2009-08-18 15::24:26] I_am_Keegan: agrees with gmaxwell about the tech extension stuff and the usage stuff

[2009-08-18 15::24:45] Romaine: Bair: what do you suggest?

[2009-08-18 15::24:48] Philippe|Wiki: gmaxwell: Is there value to a consistent set of features? or is it better for local determination?

[2009-08-18 15::25:06] [MarkW]: eptalon: that would cause technical difficulties I think. There's no way to auto-add icons to meta-links, unless we use a bot

[2009-08-18 15::25:40] gmaxwell: GerardM-: I consider the points I raised to be basically non-negoiatable, though opinions may differ. We should be content poor rather than compromise user privacy. We can wait for the GLAM to change their minds… *but* I do not think a genuine conflict exists. I don't think that anyone's end goals are actually unacceptable. ::shrugs:: The key to cooperation is to figure out everyones needs and then route the wants around them.

[2009-08-18 15::25:45] GerardM-: Philippe, there are features that are not relevant to the big wikis but are requested on the smaller ones

[2009-08-18 15::25:48] chzz: Philippe|Wiki / [MarkW] Useful list of icons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Escape_Orbit/Icons

[2009-08-18 15::25:57] gmaxwell: Philippe|Wiki: Yes and No. :)

[2009-08-18 15::25:58] GerardM-: the Babel extension is an example

[2009-08-18 15::26:07] gmaxwell: What GerardM- said...

[2009-08-18 15::26:15] eptalon: [MarkW]: the problem is: can you say 'this is the link to meta', in a language that uses a script you don't know?

[2009-08-18 15::26:25] gmaxwell: Also, some features have technical problems on larger wikis while they are fine on smaller ones.

[2009-08-18 15::26:51] Bair: Romaine: I'm a monoglot in the naturals, but maybe the botwriters would be able to crawl the interwiki's on the project pages that stats.grok.se says get most traffic and make a table of result codes titles, and maybe even automatic translations?

[2009-08-18 15::26:52] Philippe|Wiki: I know some of this, I'm just hoping to trigger the next big idea in someone. :)

[2009-08-18 15::26:56] I_am_Keegan: Right, and that involves "visibility" of the project

[2009-08-18 15::26:56] GerardM-: Gregrory I agree that they are not negotionable, the question is about how you negotionate

[2009-08-18 15::26:59] eptalon: [MarkW]: they are two ways to circumvent: a) use a recognizable graphics b) use a fixed position

[2009-08-18 15::27:01] Philippe|Wiki: Some of it I absolutely didn't know

[2009-08-18 15::27:07] gmaxwell: Last I checked NLwiki made good use of the revision patrol feature, while it was totally unused (and eventually disabled) on EnWP.

[2009-08-18 15::27:27] Philippe|Wiki: cool icons, [MarkW]

[2009-08-18 15::27:27] I_am_Keegan: Ooh, that's a good example, gmaxwell

[2009-08-18 15::27:27] [MarkW]: eptalon: So you'd like us to add a small icon (maybe just the meta-icon) next to all meta links? The problem with that is that everytime somebody adds a link to meta, we'd have to manually add the icon

[2009-08-18 15::27:28] » Blurpeace joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 15::27:38] [MarkW]: Philippe|Wiki: and lots of them too

[2009-08-18 15::27:58] Philippe|Wiki: or have a bot do it, Mark, which would be resource hungry

[2009-08-18 15::28:03] I_am_Keegan: nl.wiki is very, very popular to its native speakers. En.wiki is very, very popular for native and non-native speakers

[2009-08-18 15::28:08] eptalon: [MarkW]: I was just talking about the backlink from the 'admin noticeboard' to meta.

[2009-08-18 15::28:12] GerardM-: Essential is that we FIRST understand how GLAMs think and what they value

[2009-08-18 15::28:14] I_am_Keegan: Thus, you have two entirely different community bases

[2009-08-18 15::28:46] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: Is it that simple? isn't that like saying "what Wikimedians think and what they value?" Wont' there be an infinity of answers?

[2009-08-18 15::28:48] [MarkW]: eptalon: Oooh, I'm terrible sorry, I thought you were talking about adding a icon to all meta-links on strategywiki. My mistake, I completely misunderstood.

[2009-08-18 15::28:51] Bair: how much can grantwriting be farmed out to the volunteers so that the office gets less paperwork?

[2009-08-18 15::29:15] [MarkW]: eptalon: That's a very good suggestion indeed, just adding an [logo] 'on different project' link or something

[2009-08-18 15::29:16] gmaxwell: At least when I last collected readership data, enwiki was far more frequently used from .NL readers than nlwiki. ;) This was true for many other users.

[2009-08-18 15::29:17] chzz: [MarkW] template, surely? Template:Meta link or someth? That puts the icon, and uses a nice format?

[2009-08-18 15::29:19] GerardM-: not really ... so far there is a thread going through the things I have heared

[2009-08-18 15::29:24] » Annemarie joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 15::29:25] eekim: Bair: That's a fascinating question

[2009-08-18 15::29:28] gmaxwell: (I.e. I_am_Keegan's point is supported by evidence)

[2009-08-18 15::29:32] Annemarie: lolstrategy

[2009-08-18 15::29:39] eptalon: [MarkW]: All supposing we get a 'link to all AN boards-page on meta.

[2009-08-18 15::29:43] Philippe|Wiki: oh god, there's Annemarie

[2009-08-18 15::29:43] eekim: The knee-jerk reaction you'll hear from grantwriters is, "None"

[2009-08-18 15::29:49] Annemarie: I thought about squatting this channel.

[2009-08-18 15::29:52] [MarkW]: eptalon: indeed

[2009-08-18 15::29:53] Annemarie: Seemed too lame, though.

[2009-08-18 15::29:59] Philippe|Wiki: eekim, who is doing grantwriting for office now?

[2009-08-18 15::30:05] [MarkW]: Annemarie: it's pretty fun, now don't spoil it :P

[2009-08-18 15::30:05] eekim: But I think that's defeatist. There are opportunities to experiment.

[2009-08-18 15::30:12] GerardM-: there is NPG on one end and Tropenmuseum on the other where Tropenmuseum indicates that they shared the NPG position five years ago

[2009-08-18 15::30:23] eekim: Philippe|Wiki: Some combination of Rand, Sara, Rebecca, and Anya

[2009-08-18 15::30:25] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: what brought about the change in ideals?

[2009-08-18 15::30:26] I_am_Keegan: gmaxwell, right, nl is dedicated, en is a monolith

[2009-08-18 15::30:31] eekim: I think Sara does most of the grantwriting

[2009-08-18 15::30:36] Annemarie: Rand?

[2009-08-18 15::30:41] Philippe|Wiki: eekim, yeah, that was my impression.... I wrote chnks of the Ford one.

[2009-08-18 15::30:42] eekim: Hi Annemarie!

[2009-08-18 15::30:50] Annemarie: Hi eekim!

[2009-08-18 15::30:54] GerardM-: they found that another approach got them what they were looking for

[2009-08-18 15::31:05] eekim: Philippe|Wiki: How did that come about?

[2009-08-18 15::31:08] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: is it possible to replicate that learning experience?

[2009-08-18 15::31:09] GerardM-: more buy in more people looking at their online content

[2009-08-18 15::31:18] Philippe|Wiki: eekim, I used to be a grantwriter, and Sue knew it :)

[2009-08-18 15::31:30] GerardM-: yes but you have to make sure that it is open reporting

[2009-08-18 15::31:30] eekim: ah, so she reached out to you directly

[2009-08-18 15::31:34] Philippe|Wiki: yes

[2009-08-18 15::31:51] GerardM-: for instance for the Tropenmuseum I blog about how we progress

[2009-08-18 15::31:55] eekim: so that's certainly one opportunity: seek volunteers to have grantwriting experience

[2009-08-18 15::31:55] Philippe|Wiki: afk for one sec

[2009-08-18 15::32:03] eptalon: Need me for anything else?

[2009-08-18 15::32:16] eekim: another opportunity is to write grant apps on the Wiki and let anyone contribute

[2009-08-18 15::32:16] GerardM-: this means that it becomes a story and this makes it more interesting for people to follow

[2009-08-18 15::32:26] Philippe|Wiki: back

[2009-08-18 15::32:44] Annemarie: registers #wikipedia-strategy and phishes...

[2009-08-18 15::32:44] GerardM-: eekim there is a 5 million EURO project from the EU

[2009-08-18 15::32:58] eekim: GerardM-: For?

[2009-08-18 15::33:15] GerardM-: improved multi lingual support

[2009-08-18 15::33:15] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: You're welcome.

[2009-08-18 15::33:35] [MarkW]: eptalon: thanks for the suggestion :P Although it took some time to get on the same page ^__^

[2009-08-18 15::33:38] eekim: for Wikimedia, or in general?

[2009-08-18 15::33:38] GerardM-: of a kind that emancipates the "lesser" EU languages

[2009-08-18 15::33:55] eekim: seems like we should apply

[2009-08-18 15::34:04] GerardM-: <grin> first have a plan

[2009-08-18 15::34:09] eptalon: Philippe|Wiki: just FYI: I think how things are going, Simple might defintely be dead in about half a year, if we do not manage to enlarge its userbase.

[2009-08-18 15::34:14] eekim: seems like we should have a plan :-)

[2009-08-18 15::34:21] Philippe|Wiki: I think part of the problem, eekim, is that some folks aren't sure whether they are empowered to apply

[2009-08-18 15::34:22] Annemarie: Philippe|Wiki: /cs flags #wikimedia-strategy Philippe|Wiki -O

[2009-08-18 15::34:27] Philippe|Wiki: eptalon, I'd hate to see that happen

[2009-08-18 15::34:38] eekim: Philippe|Wiki: I see

[2009-08-18 15::34:41] GerardM-: remember that I asked for numbers about how we TRULY support languages ?

[2009-08-18 15::34:50] eptalon: but that OT here; so I'll leave you guys.

[2009-08-18 15::35:02] GerardM-: so I am afraid that we do not have a plan

[2009-08-18 15::35:31] eekim: you're saying that the numbers indicate we don't truly support multiple languages?

[2009-08-18 15::35:39] gmaxwell: eptalon: Simple will always have users so long as enwp keeps banning people. ;)

[2009-08-18 15::35:49] I_am_Keegan: Yeah, but how much can you support a language on a voluntary basis? Either they care or they don't, whether or not awareness is present

[2009-08-18 15::35:57] GerardM-: we do not have good numbers and I am not sure that the numbers show that we support languages

[2009-08-18 15::36:22] eptalon: gmaxwell: haviung users is different from 'sustainable growth'. Simple currently has about 35 regulars.

[2009-08-18 15::36:25] eekim: is there a place that collects the numbers we have and the numbers we want?

[2009-08-18 15::36:25] I_am_Keegan: It takes a few thousand folks to support millions on en.wiki, aye? So it'd take a the same proportion for any language

[2009-08-18 15::36:29] GerardM-: It is clear that we spend money for en.wp

[2009-08-18 15::36:43] eekim: if not, would love to see those at: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fact_base

[2009-08-18 15::36:51] GerardM-: but extensions like Babel are ignored because of what applies to the big projects

[2009-08-18 15::36:57] eekim: I_am_Keegan: noted

[2009-08-18 15::36:59] eptalon: gmaxwell: which is too few.

[2009-08-18 15::37:39] GerardM-: Wikipedias like Swahiki would like to have Babel info. the problem is that there are too many templates involved

[2009-08-18 15::37:43] eekim: GerardM-: I'd like to see the numbers that make it clear. What is the breakdown of Foundation/Chapters money spent on specific projects?

[2009-08-18 15::37:56] GerardM-: the extension does the same and is just a matter of implementing it

[2009-08-18 15::37:56] eekim: and how do you even measure that?

[2009-08-18 15::38:43] GerardM-: eekim, there is a lot of money targeted to en.wp requirements

[2009-08-18 15::38:49] Bair: eekim, there is so much overlap you would need to use something very different than cost center accounting

[2009-08-18 15::39:11] GerardM-: given that for instance RTL support sucks indicates that there is no parity

[2009-08-18 15::39:30] gmaxwell: I don't think we've clearly defined what should be stragety and what people should just go and do. For example, the geonotice improvements proposal is just a couple hours of uncontroversal development work. I was surprised to see a proposal for it… and I'm concerned that the proposal process may cause overdesign and scope creep to the point where the effort is no longer justified, or would no longer be enjoyable to develop.

[2009-08-18 15::39:49] eekim: gmaxwell: I hear you

[2009-08-18 15::40:02] GerardM-: given that there is no reaction to the proposal for having an assessment for African language and their compatibility with MediaWiki ....

[2009-08-18 15::40:04] gmaxwell: GerardM-: How much should be targeted to en.wp development, being mindful that it does constitute an overwhelming majority of the readership?

[2009-08-18 15::40:08] eekim: how can we make it clearer that proposals are a space to articulate ideas, and that anyone is welcome to take them on?

[2009-08-18 15::40:23] GerardM-: gmaxwell it is only 50% of our traffic

[2009-08-18 15::40:23] Bair: so there needs to be a new category for proposals to be moved elsewhere?

[2009-08-18 15::40:25] Annemarie: eekim: There's not?

[2009-08-18 15::40:48] Philippe|Wiki: Bair, why?

[2009-08-18 15::40:51] GerardM-: so 25% for the other projects is not unreasonable

[2009-08-18 15::40:54] Philippe|Wiki: Why not leave them there for someone to develop :)

[2009-08-18 15::40:56] Annemarie: I thought the idea was that Wikimedia would solicit ideas from the community, and then steal them and pretend they came up with them on their own.

[2009-08-18 15::40:56] gmaxwell: GerardM-: Right, now add the next few projects. You very quickly reach 99%

[2009-08-18 15::40:59] GerardM-: it could be more

[2009-08-18 15::41:00] ragesoss: gmaxwell: but geonotice improvement have major strategic implications (IMO) and non-coders don't have much of an idea of how easy/hard a technical proposal is

[2009-08-18 15::41:05] Annemarie: In an attempt to keep it's power.

[2009-08-18 15::41:16] ragesoss: gmaxwell: it may be simple, but it hadn't been done before

[2009-08-18 15::41:21] GerardM-: gmaxwell we do not spend on language technoglogy for the other languages

[2009-08-18 15::41:35] eekim: Annemarie: I don't see this process as serving only the foundation

[2009-08-18 15::42:01] gmaxwell: ragesoss: Geonotice has been done. Just not more sophicated ones. I'm not criticizing the idea at all. I'm just concerned that a front heavy discussion process may be counter productive to accomplishing something in that domain.

[2009-08-18 15::42:01] eekim: in the same way that if there's a proposal that others want to get behind, they should\

[2009-08-18 15::42:06] Bair: supporting utf8 is kind of spending to support anything unicode does

[2009-08-18 15::42:08] GerardM-: I am talking about development money

[2009-08-18 15::42:37] Annemarie: Geonotice is fantastic until you tunnel.

[2009-08-18 15::42:52] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, but we write to the norm, not the exception, Annemarie

[2009-08-18 15::42:56] gmaxwell: Annemarie: eh. Something doesn't need to be a 100% solution to be very useful.

[2009-08-18 15::42:57] Bair: do we need to encourage unicode to support more languages?

[2009-08-18 15::43:18] Annemarie: gmaxwell: Some sort of exemption system or something would be nice, though.

[2009-08-18 15::43:26] eekim: we need to be clearer that people can get behind proposals now if they want

[2009-08-18 15::43:31] GerardM-: Bair yes, but the problems is not so much UNICODE but fonts

[2009-08-18 15::43:34] Annemarie: Get behind?

[2009-08-18 15::43:43] Philippe|Wiki: Some of them.

[2009-08-18 15::43:48] eekim: not all do

[2009-08-18 15::44:06] gmaxwell: Annemarie: Sure, and also easily added....

[2009-08-18 15::44:17] Annemarie: gmaxwell: Not saying otherwise. :P

[2009-08-18 15::44:25] eekim: and the ones that require money don't have to get that money from the foundation

[2009-08-18 15::44:39] Annemarie: Sure, they can just rob a bank.

[2009-08-18 15::44:50] eekim: whatever works ;-)

[2009-08-18 15::45:01] GerardM-: Annemarie we can apply for a subsidy

[2009-08-18 15::45:02] Philippe|Wiki: I deny all involvement in the bank robbery plan.

[2009-08-18 15::45:12] Annemarie: GerardM-: From whom?

[2009-08-18 15::45:13] gmaxwell: ragesoss: Basically, it's easy to do something simple. But if you hand someone a 200 page spec it will seem very daunting. ... and if the spec was designed in a vacuum rather than in tandem with actual usage it will often not be very good (unrealistic demands, and/or useless features)

[2009-08-18 15::45:18] GerardM-: the EU for instance

[2009-08-18 15::45:19] » eptalon left the chat room.

[2009-08-18 15::45:36] gmaxwell: Some types of projects need long term planning and funding.. There is just no other option for them.

[2009-08-18 15::45:38] GerardM-: certainly when multiple chapters indicate their support

[2009-08-18 15::45:42] eekim: i'm starting to understand the context for the grantwriting question

[2009-08-18 15::45:45] gmaxwell: But others do not.

[2009-08-18 15::46:08] eekim: i'll point some folks at the Foundation to these comments, as they should jump in on the discussion

[2009-08-18 15::46:08] Bair: it would probably be a mistake to try to herd all the browser developers, although maybe we can organize free font distribution for the languages our stats show lack support proportional to their user base. that would be a lot of work

[2009-08-18 15::46:25] ragesoss: gmaxwell: true. I hope the geonotice proposal doesn't feel like a 200 page spec. "Features that would be great to have" is more the idea.

[2009-08-18 15::46:44] eekim: in the meantime, GerardM-, I would love to see a page on the strategy Wiki that lists the numbers you're using to make the argument that we're not paying enough attention to multilingual issues

[2009-08-18 15::46:49] gmaxwell: ragesoss: so I just worry a bit that, like perfect is the enemy of good, sometimes extensive discussion ahead of development is the enemy of getting something accomplished.

[2009-08-18 15::46:54] eekim: if those numbers already exist somewhere, would be good to link to them

[2009-08-18 15::46:59] GerardM-: Bair free fonts are nice as long as they support the characters we need

[2009-08-18 15::47:18] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: do the free fonts support characters in non-latin alphabets usually?

[2009-08-18 15::47:20] GerardM-: eekim, I can tell you what numbers I would like to see

[2009-08-18 15::47:21] Philippe|Wiki: you're the resident expert

[2009-08-18 15::47:28] eekim: GreardM-: That would be great

[2009-08-18 15::47:40] GerardM-: philippe even Latin characters are problematic

[2009-08-18 15::47:44] gmaxwell: ragesoss: Sometimes the joy and accomplishment of a development project

[2009-08-18 15::47:55] ragesoss: gmaxwell, indeed. If some of these proposals don't come to fruition well before the "planning" period is up, it'll be a shame

[2009-08-18 15::48:05] GerardM-: Lingala is a good example of a Latin language not well supported

[2009-08-18 15::48:30] Philippe|Wiki: Well, the planning period will come to an end; but that... that doesn't mean the work stops at the end of the period.

[2009-08-18 15::48:44] eekim: GerardM-: As part of your numbers, it would be useful to prioritize the steps

[2009-08-18 15::48:51] » Bair left the chat room.

[2009-08-18 15::48:57] gmaxwell: http://dejavu.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/dejavu/trunk/dejavu-fonts/langcover.txt < here is a single wide coverage free unicode font

[2009-08-18 15::49:04] ragesoss: Philippe, my point is that a lot of things are simple enough to move well beyond planning before then.

[2009-08-18 15::49:08] eekim: as I_am_Keegan noted earlier, it doesn't to focus on languages where there isn't a volunteer community

[2009-08-18 15::49:10] GerardM-: numbers give an impression of how we deal with other languages

[2009-08-18 15::49:13] gmaxwell: It doesn't, by intent, include CJK faces.

[2009-08-18 15::49:21] eekim: and the flip side is true as well: can't have a volunteer community if you don't support the language

[2009-08-18 15::49:25] GerardM-: priorities are about what you would like to see done

[2009-08-18 15::49:29] Philippe|Wiki: ragesoss, I totally agree. i just dont want folks to think that the window of opportunity is only the planning period

[2009-08-18 15::49:41] I_am_Keegan: Paradoxes, like tarsiers, abound

[2009-08-18 15::49:45] » Bair joined the chat room.

[2009-08-18 15::49:52] GerardM-: as it is, we do not even know what issues exist

[2009-08-18 15::50:20] ragesoss: Philipple, and per Greg I don't want to see the planning period limited to (over)-planning.

[2009-08-18 15::50:21] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: Part of strategic planning is taking an inventory :)

[2009-08-18 15::50:21] eekim: GerardM-: so help start an inventory

[2009-08-18 15::50:22] GerardM-: we know that RTL was a Google summer of code project and the results were never used

[2009-08-18 15::50:26] Philippe|Wiki: I think that's part of what we're doing

[2009-08-18 15::50:33] I_am_Keegan: >Back to keyboard, had a moment to summarize the thought. There was a US TV commercial that showed an Indonesian girl looking at Wikipedia on her laptop. It's awesome (though staged) that this does occur. Helps young people learn English. However, does it occur to her that her language wiki exists?

[2009-08-18 15::50:37] GerardM-: eekim do I have a budget ?

[2009-08-18 15::50:59] eekim: for what?

[2009-08-18 15::51:07] GerardM-: doing the inventory

[2009-08-18 15::51:08] eekim: believe me, free advice will be heeded :-)

[2009-08-18 15::51:17] GerardM-: bad experience abounds

[2009-08-18 15::51:18] Bair: what's RTL?

[2009-08-18 15::51:29] gmaxwell: ragesoss: So what I cut myself off in saying is that... sometimes extensive 'suggestions' remove the joy and accomplishment of development. Many suggestions are obvious to people who consider the idea for even a moment, and now a developer can't take credit for them as they were all hashed out by the armchair developers. It's dissapointing to do a lot of RealWork that no one else wanted to do, then later watch someone strutting around point

[2009-08-18 15::51:32] GerardM-: right to left .. as in Arabic Hebrew Persian

[2009-08-18 15::51:42] Philippe|Wiki: I'm sorry, Gerard, but I have an issue with that: this project is run on free advice. As a non-profit, every dollar is carefully watched; I'm not sure that having a budget for the sake of having a budget is the answer.

[2009-08-18 15::52:04] Bair: does the input editor in Acai support RTL entry?

[2009-08-18 15::52:18] eekim: GerardM-: You're complaining that we don't pay enough attention to languages. You're saying there are things we need to know. I'm saying we need to capture that somewhere so that we can pay attention to it.

[2009-08-18 15::52:37] ragesoss: gmaxwell: that's interesting. So I'm stealing the soul of programming for a free project by voicing the things that are so obvious that even a non-programmer can recognize them?

[2009-08-18 15::52:42] Philippe|Wiki: Bair, I'm asking Naoko that question right now

[2009-08-18 15::52:49] eekim: i can tell you that i'll certainly pay attention to that, and i think that many others will as well

[2009-08-18 15::52:50] Bair: WP:RTL redirects to "Right to vanish" - that might be one place to start fixing the problem

[2009-08-18 15::53:05] GerardM-: I have done a proposal to the WMF in the past about this and I never received an answer

[2009-08-18 15::53:21] eekim: GerardM-: Plus, it will save you time in the long run. You won't have to bring up the same points over and over again. You can just point.

[2009-08-18 15::53:32] GerardM-: i just pointed

[2009-08-18 15::53:41] eekim: sorry, must have missed it. could you resend?

[2009-08-18 15::53:45] GerardM-: to solve issues around UNICODE and fonts

[2009-08-18 15::54:13] Bair: I know for a fact that the Arabic Wikipedia renders RTL and I'm pretty sure Hebrew does too, on some pages, or am I mistaken?

[2009-08-18 15::54:20] GerardM-: and it did include an inventory

[2009-08-18 15::54:28] Philippe|Wiki: Gerard, where is it?

[2009-08-18 15::54:44] GerardM-: in the WMF archive ?

[2009-08-18 15::54:56] eekim: what archive? did you email it to someone?

[2009-08-18 15::55:00] Philippe|Wiki: Do you have a copy of it that you could get to us?

[2009-08-18 15::55:07] gmaxwell: ragesoss: Ugh "I'm". I'm sorry, I've come off as critcial of your actions.

[2009-08-18 15::55:11] eekim: if it's not on a Wiki somewhere, why not put it on strategy?

[2009-08-18 15::55:20] GerardM-: Bair change your language on Commons to Arabic and look how screwed the user preferences for Arabic look

[2009-08-18 15::55:21] eekim: it would be of great value to all of us

[2009-08-18 15::55:32] gmaxwell: ragesoss: Where that was *not* my intent. I used the geonotice one as an example because it's an area I feel completely qualified to speak about.

[2009-08-18 15::55:37] ragesoss: gmaxwell, I didn't take it as critical of my action.

[2009-08-18 15::55:42] gmaxwell: ragesoss: Oh okay. :)

[2009-08-18 15::55:47] Philippe|Wiki: Bair, I still haven't gotten a response from Naoko, but if you'll pvt me your email address, I'll mail you when she responds

[2009-08-18 15::55:57] ragesoss: I took it as a broader concern, which if it's real, it's worth thinking about.

[2009-08-18 15::56:07] gmaxwell: ragesoss: but yes, there is that risk. ... I don't know how to address it.

[2009-08-18 15::57:16] ragesoss: gmaxwell, obviously wikimedia is at a point where development is split between paid and volunteer, and it's long been observed that there are social/emotional inefficiencies when that happens.

[2009-08-18 15::57:27] Philippe|Wiki: Bair: Naoko says there's a known issue for IE7 for RTL; Acai supports it in non-IE7 browsers

[2009-08-18 15::57:38] gmaxwell: ragesoss: But I do know how depressing it is when you work hard on a feature, and then someone who's primary skill is speaking continually goes around taking credit for it... and this kind of issue exists on a continuum.

[2009-08-18 15::57:45] I_am_Keegan: Anywhose, in summary of our first position: Other projects/languages need more contributors. This directly means they need more representation, and that comes from the desire of volunteers to build something out of nothing. Conversely, you can't force this to happen.

[2009-08-18 15::58:14] gmaxwell: ragesoss: The incentives are different for paid vs volunteer development.

[2009-08-18 15::58:35] GerardM-: What I am talking about are issues with Firefox on Unix and Windows

[2009-08-18 15::58:39] I_am_Keegan: gmaxwell, yeah, volunteers are better because they expect nothing

[2009-08-18 15::58:43] ragesoss: gmaxwell: like how I single-handledly saved Wikipedia by forwarding to wikitech-l the thing about watchlistr (and then let the developers sort out the details)

[2009-08-18 15::58:58] GerardM-: \WHen i posted a bug on bugzulla I was told that it was out of scope

[2009-08-18 15::59:19] gmaxwell: ragesoss: There is an optimal amount of interaction where everyone feels like they are doing their part.

[2009-08-18 15::59:44] Bair: trying to support closed browsers is hopeless. Maybe we need a Wikiproject Vote on the Bugzilla Bugs Which Matter or something

[2009-08-18 15::59:59] GerardM-: Bair we have that

[2009-08-18 16::00:02] gmaxwell: Bair: bugzilla does have voting.

[2009-08-18 16::00:03] GerardM-: it is ignored

[2009-08-18 16::00:27] Bair: I mean other Bugzillas, for Firefox not Mediawiki

[2009-08-18 16::00:28] gmaxwell: I don't think anyone is opposed to including votes as a consideration.

[2009-08-18 16::00:56] GerardM-: gregory please, votes are ignored

[2009-08-18 16::01:01] Bair: we could track other project bugs which impede our world domin^W^Wprogress

[2009-08-18 16::01:06] eekim: folks, i'm going to have to drop off

[2009-08-18 16::01:08] [MarkW]: Well, we've been discussing for exactly one hour now. It looks like the strategy-project is working quite well and some great suggestions are being made. I got the feeling we're drifting from the subject here though

[2009-08-18 16::01:11] eekim: sorry i was late today

[2009-08-18 16::01:13] Philippe|Wiki: Well, ladies and gentlemen, I work for a slavedriver, who stands menancingly and screams at me if I dont get work done

[2009-08-18 16::01:17] gmaxwell: GerardM-: Of course they are ignored; because they are only used by a few people they really are just random numbers.

[2009-08-18 16::01:20] eekim: will look forward to interacting on the Wiki

[2009-08-18 16::01:26] Philippe|Wiki: So please, continue to chat, but the log ends now :)