IRC office hours/2009-09-01

From Strategic Planning

[14:12] <bodnotbod> Test...Is anyone speaking? I can't see anything.

[14:15] <cary-overwhelmed> maybe the microphone is off

[14:15] <yannf> I fear I come late

[14:15] <cary-overwhelmed> 20:00 CDT

[14:16] <cary-overwhelmed> That is, what... 0:00 UTC

[14:16] <bodnotbod> Microphone? Oh. I thought it was a text thing. I don't have any questions anyway... I just thought I'd come and see what was going on.

[14:16] <bodnotbod> Huh? No, it's 20:16, I thought. Oh, maybe it's a British summertime thing. I always assume GMT=UTC. I'm in London.

[14:18] <bodnotbod> We're early!

[14:19] <bodnotbod>

[14:20] * cary-overwhelmed changes topic to 'Office Hours Today - 20:00-21:00UTC; we're back from SF, but Philippe is out sick. OFFICE HOUR CHATTS ARE PUBLICLY LIVE'

[14:20] * eekim ( has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[14:22] <yannf> hello all btw

[14:22] <eekim> hi yannf

[14:23] <cary-overwhelmed> 20:00 UTC is in one hour

[14:24] <eekim> we technically have another half hour before office hours start, but thought i'd pop in early

[14:24] <eekim> philippe has the flu; be sure to wish him well!

[14:25] * Philippe|Wiki (n=Philippe@wikimedia/Philippe) has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[14:25] * Philippe|Wiki is now known as Philippe|Sick

[14:25] * eekim laughs

[14:26] <eekim> and there he is, right on cue, flu and all!

[14:26] <eekim> welcome Philippe|Wiki

[14:26] <Philippe|Sick> eekim, I just told Cary that I wasn't good at following directions and would drop in.

[14:26] <cary-overwhelmed> he will infect us all!

[14:26] <eekim> is there such a thing as irc quarantine?

[14:26] * Philippe|Sick koffs in cary's general direction

[14:27] <Philippe|Sick> Yeah, it's -v i think

[14:27] <Philippe|Sick> Tamiful is $189! :0X

[14:28] <Philippe|Sick> I swear to god, I'm sending the bill to Sue. I think she's patient zero.

[14:28] <eekim> even if she isn't, it would be fun to spread that rumor ;-)

[14:29] <bodnotbod> If only you had a decent healthcare system...

[14:29] <eekim> don't remind us

[14:29] <bodnotbod> hee hee.

[14:30] <yannf> is there already a proposal for working with Openlibrary?

[14:30] <Philippe|Sick> StrategyBot: are you there, dear? Begin log.

[14:30] <StrategyBot> Yes, master, logging?

[14:30] <yannf> on building a database of all books ever published

[14:30] <eekim> i don't see one currently

[14:30] <yannf> this was discussed recently on wikisource-l

[14:31] <eekim> would be great to summarize that discussion as a proposal

[14:31] * cary-overwhelmed is now known as cary-lunch

[14:32] <Philippe|Sick> Eekim, I don't totally trust strategybot yet, so I'm going to run an independent log of what's going on in here for office hours. But i'm actually going to leave this physical space, so i'm not near the computer.

[14:33] <eekim> thanks, philippe

[14:33] <yannf> eekim, well, the issue is that there isn't an agreement about what we should do

[14:33] <eekim> how close would you say you are to agreement?

[14:33] <yannf> hmm, not very close

[14:34] <eekim> perhaps continuing the discussion as a proposal page on the wiki will help bring you all to agreement

[14:34] <eekim> at worst, it will help show what you agree on and what you don't :-)

[14:34] * Philippe|Sick changes topic to 'Office Hours Today - 20:00-21:00UTC; we're back from Argentina, but Philippe is out sick. OFFICE HOUR CHATS ARE PUBLICLY LOGGED'

[14:35] <GerardM-> eekim and Philippe|sick I have a workable plan to stimulate some African interest

[14:35] <eekim> awesome! let's hear it

[14:35] <yannf> the only agreement is that it is something not already available, and very much needed at least as a reference for WM projects

[14:35] <GerardM-> it involves loclalisation, GLAMs and spending money on advertisemsent

[14:36] <GerardM-> GLAMS are interested in sharing African content ... they feel strongly about that

[14:36] <Philippe|Sick> Gerard, I'll read the log and find you if I have any questions. Eekim threatened to cut my internet connection if I didn't stop working.

[14:36] * Philippe|Sick is now known as Philippe|Away

[14:36] <GerardM-> so when we localise for a specific language and then get content from GLAMS we have an environment where they can DO something with it ... either Commons or their language wiki

[14:37] <GerardM-> when we then advertise in those countries, we make the right kinda noises that could actually work

[14:38] <eekim> yannf: well, that's a start :-)

[14:38] <eekim> GerardM: Have you proposed this on strategy yet?

[14:38] <GerardM-> no

[14:39] <GerardM-> I am still considering things ...

[14:39] <eekim> would love to see that. would be a good basis for doing some barnraising around the idea.

[14:39] <eekim> makes sense

[14:39] <GerardM-> have discussed it with among others the Tropenmuseum ...

[14:39] <GerardM-> one issue is that many people have the wrong ideas

[14:40] <GerardM-> for instance the "best practices" in Meta, I find everything but best practices

[14:42] <eekim> looking at that page now

[14:42] <GerardM-> problem is that what others do has not been considered

[14:42] <eekim> are you disagreeing with what's there, or are you pointing out gaps?

[14:42] <eekim> best practices should be based on experience, not on speculation

[14:42] <eekim> so i agree with what you're saying

[14:43] * Juandev ( has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[14:45] <eekim> welcome, Juandev

[14:45] <Juandev> eekim: welcome where?

[14:45] <GerardM-> there are two things ... because of the subject and the person who posted, I feel as if the law has been laid down.

[14:45] <Juandev> I am here every day;)

[14:45] <eekim> to the Wikimedia strategic planning office hours

[14:45] <Juandev> I see

[14:46] <eekim> well then, thanks for being here! :-)

[14:46] <GerardM-> given that there is hardly any communication commung out of them I shrugged

[14:46] <GerardM-> and ignored largely

[14:46] <eekim> that's unfortunate, Gerard

[14:46] <eekim> i'll point Frank to this discussion

[14:47] <eekim> i'm sure that's not his intention at all

[14:47] <GerardM-> then at Wikimania it is brought forward as "important" and this is why I speak u[

[14:47] <GerardM-> it is also in things like the NIH project

[14:47] <eekim> maybe there are ways to frame the best practices so it sounds less like the "law" and is more open

[14:47] <GerardM-> it is not at all something that can be reproduced

[14:48] <GerardM-> With the LARGE size of the e-mails involved by only one of several staff involved it is obvious not reproducable

[14:49] * henna (n=jeg@wikipedia/henna) has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[14:49] <yannf> eekim, ok, there we are

[14:49] <GerardM-> consider, staff is available from 9 to 17 and the average community volunteer is at work

[14:49] <eekim> GerardM-: which best practice are you looking at? not seeing it

[14:49] <GerardM-> about GLAM

[14:50] <eekim> nice, yannf. hope that folks start fleshing that out, and that it helps resolve some differences

[14:50] <eekim> GerardM-: are you at ?

[14:51] <GerardM-> looking at that yes

[14:52] <GerardM-> got pointed to

[14:54] * Seddon (n=chatzill@Wikimedia/Seddon) has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[14:55] * Aqwis ( has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[14:55] <eekim> is your objection to what frank said during his talk at wikimania? i'm not seeing anything obviously objectionable on that wiki page.

[14:56] <eekim> btw, welcome everybody! thanks for joining strategic planning office hours.

[14:56] <eekim> philippe is out with the flu (wish him well!), so i'm taking questions today

[14:57] * Seddon (n=chatzill@Wikimedia/Seddon) Quit ("Wikipedia: Pruning unwated branches from the tree of knowledge")

[14:57] * lyzzy (n=Lyzzy@wikipedia/Lyzzy) has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[14:57] <lyzzy> hi

[14:57] <eekim> hi lyzzy

[15:00] * Willking1979 (n=williamc@wikipedia/willking1979) has joined #wikimedia-strategy

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[15:04] <bodnotbod> So, I have a question: how confident do we feel that the strategies that arise on the strat wiki will be taken on by the WMF? And does anyone feel they'll just create their own strategy and ignore us?

[15:05] * Aqwis ( has left #wikimedia-strategy

[15:05] <eekim> do you have an opinion on that bodnotbod?

[15:05] <Philippe|Away> I can't help myself.

[15:05] * Keegan_ (n=chatzill@wikimedia/Keegan) has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[15:05] * Amgine (n=amgine@wikinews/Amgine) has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[15:05] <Philippe|Away> I'm incapable of not watching a chat

[15:05] * Keegan_ remembered this week

[15:06] <eekim> hi keegan :-)

[15:06] <Keegan_> Hello

[15:06] <eekim> bodnotbod: WMF wouldn't be investing in this process if it was planning on just coming up with its own thing

[15:07] <bodnotbod> I'm undecided Eekim. I suppose I'm left wondering a little by the taking on of Hallprin (is that the right name?)... I suppose I feel that strategy is part of what he's there for. And I suppose I am somewhat concerned that the community will be overridden by the board.

[15:07] <eekim> that's fair

[15:07] <eekim> first, i don't think the board _can_ override the community, even if it wanted to

[15:08] <eekim> that's the beauty of being part of this community and this project

[15:08] <Philippe|Away> there would be villagers at the door with pitchforks if the Board tried that, I believe :)

[15:08] <eekim> second, i think matt hallprin brings a lot of expertise in how to think strategically

[15:08] <eekim> that's something we can all benefit from

[15:08] <eekim> i don't think his intention is to try and tell everyone what to do

[15:09] <eekim> have you listened to his Wikipedia Weekly interview?

[15:09] <bodnotbod> OK, that's reassuring. It's just that I am making a personal commitment to read all the proposals, and I will be mightily annoyed if that turned out to be a waste of time.

[15:09] <eekim> (whoops; see from the comments that you have)

[15:10] <bodnotbod> I have listened to it, Eekim. It was quite interesting. I should maybe listen to it again, though.

[15:10] <eekim> wow, that's an amazing commitment. thank you for that.

[15:10] <eekim> what do you think about what you've read thus far?

[15:11] <bodnotbod> Heh, it's OK. I don't see how I can really support proposals properly without knowing what they all are. I'm going to join a task force when they get going too, I hope.

[15:11] <GerardM-> eekim, I mentioned this idea of reaching out to Africa ... I can put it on the strategy wiki, but that will only get it talked to death if at all and, I have no clue how much it will be delayed as a consequence

[15:12] <eekim> bodnotbod: that sounds excellent

[15:12] <eekim> GerardM, if it's a proposal that involves many people, i don't see how you can get it going without giving the appropriate people a chance to talk about it

[15:12] <bodnotbod> The ones I've read so far... well, there's quite a range. Some are too technical for me to appreciate them. Others are poorly written and have too little detail. But there's some I like which I have added to my favourites. I'm most interested in Wikipedia. I'm interested in multimedia, although I'm torn because I don't want more multimedia to take away from accessibility.

[15:13] * cary-lunch is now known as cary

[15:14] <GerardM-> eekim, in this way strategy would be the exclusive place if you want to get something done

[15:14] <eekim> i think it would be interesting to start a page on strategy that pointed to proposals you think are relevant for a specific topic (say, multimedia) and then start listing pros/cons

[15:14] <GerardM-> is that the idea ?

[15:15] <eekim> i hope strategy won't be exclusive anything. i hope it will be inclusive. :-) but i also hope that we establish a culture of _action_, not just talk

[15:16] <bodnotbod> OK, eekim. I will think about that. I still have a lot more proposals to read :o)

[15:16] <eekim> thanks, bodnotbod :-) you're probably ahead of me on the proposals

[15:18] * cary-office (n=organism@wikimedia/Bastique) has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[15:18] * ragesoss ( has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[15:18] <bodnotbod> I discovered the 'favorites' page too late... there were some proposals I really liked and now I'm wondering if I will find them again! Hopefully they were added to my watchlist.

[15:18] * cary (n=rapture@wikimedia/Bastique) has left #wikimedia-strategy ("Leaving")

[15:19] <lyzzy> GerardM-: you've created Is this meant as a proposal?

[15:19] <GerardM-> there are several parts to it but yes

[15:20] <GerardM-> I would love to see numbers

[15:20] <GerardM-> I would love to understand how WMF walks the talk

[15:20] <bodnotbod> I think Lyzzy is going to point out it's not in the 'proposal' namespace :o)

[15:21] <GerardM-> there was a template that was intended to be used ... i did

[15:21] <lyzzy> indeed, I stumbled upon it because it was categorized as a chapters matter (and wondered)

[15:21] <GerardM-> namespaces are beyond me

[15:21] <bodnotbod> When I set up my proposal it didn't go into the namespace either. It's OK though, it's easy to move.

[15:21] <eekim> uh oh. that's a problem.

[15:22] <GerardM-> I did not put in the chapters space

[15:22] <GerardM-> someone else did\

[15:23] <lyzzy> it's a wiki ;-)

[15:23] <GerardM-> yeah right

[15:23] <eekim> moved it to the proper namespace

[15:24] <lyzzy> so now it can be catagorized :)

[15:24] <GerardM-> another example of language support would be the support of subtitles for our video

[15:25] <GerardM-> it has so far not been considered.. at Wikimania Michael Dale indecated that it takes something like one or two weeks of his time

[15:25] <GerardM-> without it, ANY video is only usable for one language

[15:25] <GerardM-> the question is will it get a priority ..

[15:26] <eekim> that's a good question, gerard

[15:26] <eekim> we need to look at everything we want accomplished and understand the tradeoffs before we start prioritizing

[15:27] <lyzzy> GerardM-: there are some videos with lnguage support

[15:27] * ezachte ( has joined #wikimedia-strategy

[15:27] <eekim> hey ezachte!

[15:27] <lyzzy> but in global you are right

[15:28] <GerardM-> given that the support for videos is being developed, the videos with some subtitles will be limited

[15:28] <GerardM-> Hoi Erik :)

[15:28] <bodnotbod> I think I saw a video from the recent Wikimania that had a drop down box for subtitles. The presentation was in English. And the subtitles were in.... um... English. :o)

[15:28] <ezachte> hi all, sorry to be late, struggled with IRC client, don't use if enough

[15:28] <GerardM-> bodnotbod .. that is really useful

[15:28] <eekim> no worries, erik

[15:29] <GerardM-> the pronunciation of English is not always that easy

[15:29] <bodnotbod> It is useful if you're deaf. But still a little unfortunate.

[15:29] <bodnotbod> OK.

[15:29] <Keegan_> ...not to mention English has "versions"...

[15:29] <GerardM-> true

[15:30] <henna> bodnotbod: I need English subtitles with some English versions, and love French subtitles with spoken French video :)

[15:31] <bodnotbod> Fair enough. I didn't think about it that way. I'm not someone who has taken much interest in languages, to my shame.

[15:31] <GerardM-> <grin> it is only half our traffic that is not English

[15:32] <bodnotbod> Has anyone looked around at videos on the web to see if there's a technology out there that allows one video to have different language subtitles that one can choose? Is it possible with .ogg files?

[15:34] <ragesoss> Food for thought: Erik Moeller articulated a goal of 300 million contributors to Wikimedia projects, but made clear that this would be accomplish (in large part) by providing other means of contributing besides the standard method of editing wiki content pages. On the other hand, the Omidyar Network grant requires Wikimedia to a level or levels of participation defined by number of users making 5+ edits per month. It se

[15:34] <GerardM-> There is a lot of it

[15:35] <eekim> hey ragesoss. your last point got cut off

[15:36] <ragesoss> eekim: where?

[15:36] <eekim> "On the other hand, the Omidyar Network grant requires Wikimedia to a level or levels of participation defined by number of users making 5+ edits per month. It se"

[15:36] <ragesoss> ...It seems like those are two different strategic directions.

[15:37] <bodnotbod> Quality v quantity?

[15:37] <eekim> okay, so here is my personal opinion on all of that

[15:37] <eekim> i think that all metrics proposed thus far are very premature

[15:37] <eekim> i was not part of the omidyar/wmf discussions that led to those requirements, but i will do my best to find out the context

[15:38] <eekim> i'm meeting with matt next week

[15:38] <eekim> and i'm pretty sure he's planning on jumping on irc at some point, so he can answer some of these questions himself

[15:38] <ezachte> Erik M compared in his talk with Facebook, now 4th web site: ~ Facebook is nothing when not contributing/editing, unlike Wikipeda." Me: we could only match facebook in active contributors whe we allowed factoids of local importance, with minimal patrolling (say spam/gossib flagging only). Inclusionist viewpoint.

[15:39] <bodnotbod> This goes back to my earlier point as to whether the board are brainstorming strategies in parrallel with the community. That's what makes me a little worried.

[15:39] <ragesoss> bodnotbod, sort of. Rather, the question is, what sorts of participation do we want to build (and why), and will strategic priorities end up skewed if we are aiming to meet the ON grant requirement if "5+ edits per month" is not what we would otherwise focus on?

[15:40] <eekim> individual board members may be brainstorming internally, just as any of us might. but none of those ideas will mean anything until they're publicly aired and vetted

[15:40] <eekim> i know several board members are planning on participating actively on the strategy wiki

[15:40] <eekim> one of the good outcomes of wikimania last week

[15:41] <ragesoss> but if the grant requires ambitious growth in traditionally defined active editors, that may amount to an institutionalization of undiscussed priorities.

[15:41] <bodnotbod> That would be excellent, Eekim. That's the way I think they should proceed: use the wiki, so everything is in the same place and transparent.

[15:41] <ezachte> grant demands staying on current level of editors

[15:41] <eekim> ragesoss: that'

[15:41] <eekim> s an excellent point

[15:41] <eekim> (ack. hit return too soon!)

[15:42] <ragesoss> ezachte, do you know something abut the requirements that isn't public?

[15:42] <eekim> let's push matt and others on that. :-)

[15:42] <ezachte> I'm not sure what is public, but i helped prepare stats and trend forecast, which is public

[15:43] <bodnotbod> When you say "current level of editors" do you mean the $500,000 installments would stop if the number of editors drops below a certain level? I'm assuming they wouldn't stop if the number of editors increases!

[15:44] <ragesoss> ezachte, as far as I know, the only details that are public are basically what's in the Q&A: "Wikimedia and Omidyar have developed targets related to financial sustainability (the percentage of operating expenses supported by individual donations), global reach (global unique visitors monthly, as reported by comScore Media Metrix), global participation rates (defined as the number of editors with 5+ edits in the previous

[15:44] <ezachte> It is a bit more complicated than that, but Sara Crouse knows specifics. I'm trying to find public announcement

[15:45] <ragesoss> I've tried to find out what the specific targets are, but no one has said yet.

[15:46] <bodnotbod> Hmm. This is beginning to feel like the $2m is going to dictate strategy. Although I think we would all be aiming for a strategy that increases participation (or at least, certainly doesn't reduce it) anyway,

[15:47] <bodnotbod> (Sorry, that should be a period at the end).

[15:47] <eekim> wmf doesn't only get money from omidyar

[15:48] <eekim> everyone has their interests, from individual donors to foundations

[15:48] <ragesoss> bodnotbod: that depends on what the targets are. If it's basically, as Erik Zachte says, just maintaining the current userbase size globally, that's probably not going to matter much.

[15:48] <ezachte> Ask Sara, I don't feel at liberty to speak for her. The deal had several parts with different conditions, that I can say.

[15:48] <bodnotbod> True Eekim.

[15:48] <bodnotbod> I agree Ragesoss.

[15:48] <eekim> i'll talk to sara; will see if i can get a more definitive response

[15:48] <ragesoss> eekim, yes, but if the WMF agreed to certain targets, that seems to indicate that they already accept those targets as legitimate strategic goals.

[15:49] <eekim> that's true, ragesoss. as you point out to bodnotbod, let's see what those targets actually are before we pass judgement

[15:49] <eekim> very good thing to stay on top of

[15:50] <bodnotbod> I'm intending to write a proposal that will encourage new editors to stay and current editors to contribute more: I feel it's all about reward, recognition and being able to classify working on Wikipedia as genuine voluntary work, not just a hobby. Something that you can boast about.

[15:51] <ezachte> Please do not jump to conclusions from generalized Q&A response, my impression is conditions for the deal were very sympathetic

[15:51] <eekim> wise words, erik

[15:52] <ragesoss> ezachte, no doubt, I'd just like to know the details.

[15:52] <henna> bodnotbod: that would be a more interesting goal for now I think :)

[15:52] <ragesoss> bodnotbod: did you see ?

[15:52] <henna> rather then getting more people to contribute improve the pct we keep month on month (or other timeperios)

[15:53] <bodnotbod> Erik, I am not cynical about Omidyar. I think Omidyar and Halprin will be good for the projects. My only concern is that we might end up in a mess with the strategy wiki and the board working at cross-purposes and leaving redundant. However....

[15:53] <bodnotbod> ...if the baord gets involved with the that should work out OK.

[15:53] <lyzzy> henna: what is pct?

[15:53] <ezachte> I hope usability and back to welcoming attitude will keep/bring more editors

[15:53] <henna> pct=%

[15:54] <henna> couldn't find the kye

[15:54] <lyzzy> thx

[15:54] <henna> ezachte: agreed

[15:55] <eekim> folks, i'm going to drop off in a few minutes

[15:55] <eekim> any final thoughts/questions?

[15:56] <ezachte> I am sure the board endorses the strategy project fully and would not want to go around it, that would be insane. That does not imply their discussions will be logged on strategy wiki real time ;)

[15:56] <bodnotbod> Ragesoss, that proposals a lot like

[15:56] <bodnotbod> ...many a true word spoken in jest :o)

[15:56] <eekim> we are pushing folks very hard to be as transparent as possible in as real-time as possible

[15:56] <eekim> it's a process, but i'm optimistic

[15:56] <bodnotbod> I'm all out of questions, Eekim. Good to talk to you.

[15:57] <eekim> likewise. thanks for participating! and thanks for your commitment. i am in awe. :-)

[15:57] <bodnotbod> Heh, cheers!

[15:57] <ezachte> Me too. Thanks

[15:57] <eekim> thanks for joining, ezachte, and for filling us in on what you could

[15:57] <eekim> as i said, i'll ask sara for more definitive answers

[15:58] <bodnotbod> Get well soon Philippe!

[15:58] <ezachte> I'm glad I figured out mIRC just in time :)

[15:58] <GerardM-> .. thanks

[15:58] <eekim> thanks, gerard, and also ragesoss, henna, and lyzzy

[15:58] <eekim> very good discussion today

[15:58] <eekim> see you all on the wiki!

[15:58] <ezachte> Philippe, good to meet you in person in BA, all best

[15:58] <cary-office> if you need him again, eekim is within throwing range. I can toss something at him.

[15:59] <ragesoss> bodnotbod, yeah, a little bit like Wikipedia is an MMORPG, except instead of being about hoarding social influence/power it's about incentivising constructive contributions.

[15:59] <eekim> cary's not kidding. he'll do it.

[15:59] <Philippe|Away> StrategyBot: are you there dear? End Logging.

[15:59] <eekim> okay, bye everyone!

[15:59] <Philippe|Away> Thanks ezachte and bodnotbod :)

[15:59] <bodnotbod> bye bye

[15:59] <ragesoss> bodnotbod, the psychology of video games is something we ought to learn from.

[15:59] <ezachte> Cheers!

[15:59] <lyzzy> bye

[15:59] * lyzzy (n=Lyzzy@wikipedia/Lyzzy) has left #wikimedia-strategy

[15:59] * eekim ( has left #wikimedia-strategy

[15:59] <bodnotbod> I like the idea Ragesoss. Definitely.

[15:59] * ezachte ( has left #wikimedia-strategy

[16:00] <bodnotbod> What do I type into leave?

[16:00] <Philippe|Away> you type / quit without the space

[16:00] <bodnotbod> Thanks. Bye everyone: I have a film to watch.

[16:00] * bodnotbod (i=4f483dfc@gateway/web/freenode/x-bjgmtizhhkytegmh) Quit

[16:02] <cary-office> Just remember, I'm watching you.

[16:02] <cary-office> O.O

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