IRC office hours/2009-10-20

Philippe|away: Hi everyone

[1:04pm] You are now known as Philippe.

[1:04pm] You are now known as Philippe|Away.

[1:04pm] Philippe|Away: Bah, my nick is ghosting

[1:05pm] bodnotbod: Hello Philippe

[1:05pm] Philippe|Away: bodnotbod! How was the exhibition?

[1:05pm] bodnotbod: Yes, it went really, really well thank you. A great success. Sold much more than I would ever have expected.

[1:05pm] Philippe|Away: That's wonderful.

[1:06pm] Philippe|Away: My apologies to any of you who are here for office hours... it appears that one of our wireless networks is still hiccuping, so i'm... you know.... late.

[1:06pm] Philippe|Away: And eekim won't be able to join us

[1:06pm] bodnotbod: I'm not sure anyone else is here! They haven't replied to my messages at least.

[1:07pm] Philippe|Away: Well, then we shall chat amongst ourselves and I'll tell you the latest

[1:07pm] Philippe|Away: And if'n anyone joins us, they can chat.

[1:07pm] bodnotbod: Yes, I was hoping you could tell me about everything important that's happened in the last 2 weeks whilst I was away.

[1:07pm] Philippe|Away: Well, to start with, you may have noticed that we have a new main page

[1:07pm] aude: hello!

[1:07pm] Philippe|Away: I just pushed it out an hour ago

[1:08pm] bodnotbod: Hello aude.

[1:08pm] Philippe|Away: Aude! How are you?

[1:08pm] aude: i'm good.

[1:08pm] Philippe|Away: Great

[1:08pm] bodnotbod: Oh, I haven't seen the main page (goes off to look).

[1:08pm] aude: brainstorming ideas for carrying out the task forces

[1:08pm] Philippe|Away: aude, wonderful. I think eekim is working on that today as well.

[1:08pm] Philippe|Away: So I know he'd love to hear yours.

[1:09pm] aude: just at top of my head, but for languages, i was thinking once we do background research...

[1:09pm] aude: that we conduct some type of survey

[1:09pm] Philippe|Away: Yeah, I've been plugging away at the idea of a survey as well.

[1:09pm] Philippe|Away: Now that we can geolocate site notices (roughly), it might help with that.

[1:09pm] aude: via a social media platform such as facebook

[1:09pm] Dedalus_: alo

[1:10pm] Philippe|Away: oh, hmm, that's a fun idea, aude

[1:10pm] Philippe|Away: I hadn't thought of that.

[1:10pm] aude: one issue is that i think many people don't realize there is a version of wikipedia in their language

[1:10pm] aude: i found this from talking to people in Egypt

[1:10pm] bodnotbod: Surveys seem a good idea. For the task force I'm interested in it would be good to survey people that used to edit but don't any more. Which might be hard to get out to the people I'd be targeting for obvious reasons.

[1:10pm] Philippe|Away: ...or the version that they have may not be inclusive enough for what they want, perhaps?

[1:10pm] aude: they know english wikipedia, but not aware of others

[1:11pm] aude: there could be 10 questions or something simple, but allowing some free form answers

[1:11pm] Dedalus_: A friend gave me "The starfish and the spider". I'm wondering if the outcome of the strategic planning could be to let the "Wikimedia Movement" operate as a starfish ...

[1:11pm] You are now known as Philippe|Wiki.

[1:11pm] Amgine: aude: via Facebook?

[1:11pm] aude: i don't think it's too expensive to do something like this via facebook

[1:11pm] aude: i remember jimmy wales did something like that once

[1:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus: I'm not familiar with that.... can you tell us about it?

[1:11pm] aude: facebook users would be similar demographics to those inclined to edit wikipedia

[1:12pm] marlita_ joined the chat room.

[1:12pm] Amgine: There's rather a large percentage of the internet community which simply don't use Facebook. Ever.

[1:12pm] Amgine: But Guillom i s working on doing a survey via WMF.

[1:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hi marlita!

[1:12pm] Amgine: Using limesurvey, iirc.

[1:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine, good to hear from you as well

[1:12pm] bodnotbod: I personally don't use Facebook but I would imagine many editors do.

[1:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Guillom's is one of the surveys that's being developed as well.

[1:13pm] Amgine: g'day Philippe|Wiki

[1:13pm] marlita_: Hi Philippe

[1:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: Do you all know Marlita?

[1:13pm] Dedalus_: "The starfish and the spider" is a 2006 book by Rod Beckstrom (now president ICANN) about fully decentralized organizations ... like Wikipedia in 2006

[1:13pm] Amgine: <does survey reseach>

[1:13pm] aude: reaching out to people via wikipedia site notices is good, though it would be good to reach out broader to non-users

[1:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: Marlita is the product manager for our bookshelf projects, working on documentation... she's fantastic.

[1:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: aude, I agree, I hadn't considered how to do that, I'm glad you are!

[1:14pm] aude: i'm trying to find the thing that Jimbo did

[1:14pm] bodnotbod: I'll be excited to see the bookshelf publications. I understand there will be videos too, which was actually one of my proposals, to provide more help content in video form.

[1:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus, by decentralized, you're talking about organizationally or technicaly?

[1:15pm] marlita_: yes, there will be video; still being designed - great to know there is already thinking about using video. Send me a link if there is one, or any documentation

[1:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: marlita_ - the proposal is on the strategy wiki... we'll make sure you get a link, but you should look at the proposals there

[1:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: there are some that are directly applicable.

[1:16pm] Dedalus_: Philippe|Wiki: both

[1:16pm] aude: feel free to leave feedback: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Local_Language_Task_Force/Survey

[1:16pm] aude: i can talk to guillom too

[1:16pm] marlita_: Will take a look

[1:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: aude, have you linked that to anywhere other than here?

[1:16pm] bodnotbod: I don't know of any at the moment, Marlita. But I had thought an "anti vandal" video might be good: something to show why vandalism harms the community and a plea not to do it.

[1:17pm] aude: just made the page

[1:17pm] Philippe|Wiki: duh, i should look at page history, huh?

[1:17pm] Philippe|Wiki: and, you know, "what links here"

[1:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: can you tell me more about your idea for organizational decentralization?

[1:18pm] marlita_: anti vandal video - putting it on the consideration list

[1:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: I get the technical side, but I'm having trouble groking organizational decentralization.

[1:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm all for strengthening and expanding chapters, if that's what you mean.

[1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: you know, bodnotbod - when eekim and I were doing a "what is wikipedia" video in SF a couple months ago, we ran into and interviewed an admitted vandal.

[1:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: Was interesting.

[1:19pm] Dedalus_: Philippe|Wiki: in starfish speak - decentralization will go all the way, like AA, for example, that, is no formal organization at all, no control, no CEO, like Apache (native american tribe)

[1:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: Interesting; certainly a radical shift.

[1:20pm] AlexandrDmitri_ joined the chat room.

[1:20pm] Amgine: :[:[Improve quality content]] <- You do realize this is Engrish, right?

[1:21pm] bodnotbod: Marlita, I also thought a video of various people (using their own uploaded clip) finishing the sentence "I edit Wikipedia because..." and editing together as a montage might be a good tool to inspire new people to get involved.

[1:21pm] Dedalus_: another decentral phenomenon in 2006 was eMule : a P2P immune to attack

[1:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine: you have a problem with Engrish? Yeah, I know. It's my pet peeve page at the moment.

[1:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: I just haven't gotten around to fixing it.

[1:21pm] marlita_: vandal question re strategy project: to what extent must we call attention to addressing these sorts of problems versus addressing them quietly?

[1:21pm] aude: Here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Polls about Jimbo's poll

[1:21pm] Amgine: Yes, I do.

[1:21pm] Amgine: But that title...

[1:22pm] marlita_: bodnotbod: yes, a testimonial video is on the list. Please send me names/contact ideas if you have them.

[1:22pm] bodnotbod: Philippe, have you put up any text about your meeting with the vandal? Signpost might be interested in it as a story. I know I would be.

[1:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: marlita_: Interesting question. My personal opinion is that we do a relatively effective job of combatting it on some projects, but education could tend to prevent it.... but I don't know what the impact of calling attention to it would be. I don't think it's really a secret that it happens, so....

[1:23pm] bodnotbod: Marlita, sorry I don't have any names for you. I am very much a lone hermit.

[1:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: bodnotbod: unfortunately we didn't get to talk to him for as long as I'd have liked. I didn't get to ask much more than "what article" and "how long did it last" and "why". Not really enough to write a story about. But if it were combined with a couple of similar other experiences....

[1:24pm] GerardM-: Philippe|Wiki: did you find time to read the proposal I send you ?

[1:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: Yes, I read it on the plane. I have some notes but they're not in a position to send to you yet

[1:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: I like it.

[1:25pm] metasj joined the chat room.

[1:25pm] GerardM-: fyi, institutional support is likely

[1:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: Sj! Welcome

[1:25pm] marlita_: Philippe: the Why is most interesting to me - or maybe it's all idiosynchratiic

[1:25pm] GerardM-: Hoi metasj

[1:25pm] • metasj tweaks sj|'s nose

[1:25pm] metasj: my conference is blocking 6667!

[1:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: ACK!

[1:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: that's just tacky.

[1:25pm] metasj: hiya philippe, gerard

[1:25pm] Dedalus_: will there ever be any task force launched into action? where and when will we see the first?

[1:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: The China Task Force is already going

[1:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: So to answer your question, yes

[1:26pm] Dedalus_: Celebrate!

[1:26pm] GerardM-: I started to look at another stat from Erik ... the number of articles

[1:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: metasj: do you want me to kick sj|?

[1:26pm] GerardM-: and try to predict growth

[1:26pm] metasj: Philippe|Wiki: no pls

[1:26pm] GerardM-: in traffic

[1:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: That's an interesting exercise

[1:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, sj

[1:26pm] GerardM-: Hindi will do well as one of the bigger

[1:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: Are you seeing a solid enough set of predictors to extrapolate? That is, is the growth in some presumed pattern?

[1:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: accelerating at 'n' rate, or something?

[1:27pm] bodnotbod: How will one be informed when they are assigned to a task force? By email? User talk page? Both? If we're assigned a task force we didn't want can we request a transfer?

[1:27pm] GerardM-: I get the feeling that I see what I expect to see

[1:27pm] GerardM-: localisation is a factor and so is article count

[1:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: bodnotbod: You'll get an email from eekim if you're on a task force... but as to the second part, and I hope you'll help spread this: Anyone can engage with any task force they choose.

[1:28pm] Ziko joined the chat room.

[1:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hi Ziko

[1:28pm] bodnotbod: OK, thanks Philippe. I have chosen mine.

[1:28pm] Ziko: sorry for being late

[1:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: Sj, did I hear a rumor that you and I are in the same city?

[1:28pm] GerardM-: the Volapuk is a good model that shows how eratic things are ... no growth in articles no edits no new localisations but it still grows

[1:29pm] marlita_: I'm stepping away for 5 minutes, but not signing off

[1:29pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: There's a difference between "seeing what you want to see" and using those as known predictors and variations... so as long as you're aware of that bias, I think you can plan for it.

[1:29pm] GerardM-: at the same time I feel that if Swahili would get serious attention on articles that people are looking for that it will grow 300%

[1:30pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: I get the feeling that Swahili is about to get serious attention

[1:30pm] GerardM-: it is still so small and underdeveloped that this is possible

[1:30pm] GerardM-: I know

[1:30pm] GerardM-: the question is will we get the mix right

[1:30pm] metasj: philippe : yes! @ a bookserver conference down the street. I'm coming by the office at 4:30

[1:30pm] Philippe|Wiki: Wonderful, Sj, it'll be good to see you again. You'll see my desk the minute you walk in to the admin side.

[1:31pm] metasj: gerardm: on swahili, advice on getting the mix right is welcome.

[1:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: one of the things that concerns me there is that I don't have a feel for how prepared Swahili wiki is for the influx of new contributors.

[1:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: Do you have a feel for that?

[1:31pm] metasj: our plan to run a local-language contest will definitely draw in students

[1:31pm] GerardM-: Google can provide us with the most popular search subjects for a country

[1:31pm] bodnotbod: I seem to recall that Jimbo said in his Bridgespan Interview that he might be willing to fund seeding of languages which is one of the proposals on the strat wiki.

[1:31pm] GerardM-: if we do not have the articles associated with it, we know what to do

[1:31pm] metasj: but whether they stay around as editors or not depends on the current community finding ways to cope and perhaps other things

[1:31pm] metasj: having a balance of interests among the new contribs

[1:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: Sj, that's exactly the thing I'm tossing around in my head as well.

[1:32pm] Dedalus_: metasj: open content open books by Internet Archive, how come Wikibooks isn't mentioned as a partner?

[1:32pm] metasj: philippe: right. there are only a half-dozen people who watch policy pages there with regularity

[1:32pm] GerardM-: what we should do is not concentrate on the university people .... our aim is EVERYONE

[1:32pm] metasj: dedalus: right now the partners are all working on tools or clients for the OPDS spec

[1:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: Agreed. But we start somewhere, right? And university folks are content influencers. And our partner in that project is interested in the university folks.

[1:33pm] GerardM-: yes but they tend to use academic language

[1:33pm] metasj: which we're working on... wikibooks just came up in the last session -- it would be very helpful for wb to act as a bookserver that one could query to find out what books are available in what formats

[1:33pm] GerardM-: and that is a serious handicap

[1:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: That's where we're going to need the local community to step up.

[1:33pm] bodnotbod: What is "OPDS"? Wikipedia doesn't know.

[1:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: If our choice is "university folks" or "no one", then it's a clear decision for me. Especially when someone is willing to fund outreach to university folks. i'm not saying there aren't issues to be aware of ... but some > none.

[1:34pm] GerardM-: We should monitor the popularity of new articles that have been around for at month

[1:34pm] metasj: it's not notable yet for being a draft proposed specification

[1:34pm] Ziko: when i asked the swahili guys (i mean the two germans living there) what to do they told me that it would be necessary to approach university people

[1:34pm] GerardM-: and rate people in that way ....

[1:34pm] GerardM-: that will promote readability

[1:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: Awwww, Dedalus, that was a style/design thing

[1:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: I thought it looked kind of cool.... and we don't have to follow wikipedia rules off of wikipedia.

[1:35pm] GerardM-: ziko, there are plenty of people who would work with us if they have access to computer infrastructure

[1:36pm] GerardM-: the reason why universities are nice is because they have some infrastructure

[1:36pm] Dedalus_: Philippe|Wiki: you are messing with trademarked names and designs ...

[1:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: Well, *I* am not.... but that one was cleared.

[1:36pm] AlexandrDmitri left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[1:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: (you don't think I publish without clearing it, do you?)

[1:38pm] You left the room.

[1:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: <sigh> network hiccup

[1:39pm] Dedalus_: Philippe|Wiki: if it is something okayed by the people in the office you are in right now responsible for publicity and so on the Jay guys, go ahead

[1:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: Jay cleared the site design

[1:39pm] bodnotbod: Philippe, what is your sense of number of good applicants versus number of people required to staff the task forces?

[1:40pm] Philippe|Wiki: bodnotbod: I don't have one. Perhaps Aude does?

[1:40pm] Philippe|Wiki: She's on the selection committee... or Sj?

[1:40pm] bodnotbod: OK.

[1:41pm] GerardM-: ... wonders if and what committee is considered for me

[1:41pm] GerardM-: ... as it could be anything

[1:41pm] aude: botnotbod: "good applicants" is subjective, so it's difficult to say

[1:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: Those determinations will go out fairly soon,I hope.

[1:41pm] bodnotbod: Just as a social question, Gerard, I'm curious to know how many languages you speak?

[1:42pm] aude: we are also seeking people for our "expert database", so maybe some people applied more generally than to be on a task force

[1:43pm] marlita_: i'm back

[1:43pm] lyzzy left the chat room.

[1:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: welcome back, marlita_ - i answered your email.

[1:43pm] bodnotbod: Aude, OK... um... let's say a good applicant is one that scores 3.5 or more on average across their ratings.

[1:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: bodnotbod: I don't think there's an aggregate total

[1:44pm] aude: botnotbod: don't know

[1:45pm] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server.

[1:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: This is a REALLY bad time for me to be getting network bounces.

[1:45pm] aude: numbers help but need to look beyond that some, i think

[1:45pm] bodnotbod: In my experience of reviewing applications, those that left the interest statement blank often didn't provide much or any detail on their skills.

[1:46pm] GerardM-: why are all the pdf of interviews not readable ?

[1:46pm] aude: i think we originally said there would be a second round, where we narrow the apps down and then inquire for more details

[1:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: They are readable for me.

[1:47pm] Philippe|Wiki: What error are you getting?

[1:47pm] bodnotbod: I hope the numbers count for something, since I put in many hours providing ratings :o/

[1:47pm] GerardM-: I can not read them.. this is probably because of fonts that are restrictive

[1:47pm] metasj: the ratings are a great way to find people who we should follow up with to get more information

[1:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: I'll pass a note to John at Bridgespan.

[1:48pm] GerardM-: please do

[1:48pm] GerardM-: (I am not the only one)

[1:49pm] aude: numbers are very important to narrow things down some, but shouldn't be a hard-and-fast rule in deciding

[1:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: GerardM-: I just sent the promised note

[1:49pm] GerardM-: Thanks

[1:49pm] bodnotbod: Philippe, I still want to do some more reading of stuff on strat wiki for a couple orf days. Once I've done that, would a good way to spend my time be allocating proposals to task forces? Or is there something else that's a priority that I can help with?

[1:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: John appears to not be in the office at the moment, so I can't promise immediate resolution, but I'll followup on it.

[1:50pm] metasj: the process could have more back-and-forth, as TFs are better defined and information about the network of people interested gets better defined

[1:50pm] aude: botnotbod: there are still applicants to be reviewed

[1:50pm] bodnotbod: OK Aude. I can help there.

[1:50pm] Philippe|Wiki: bodnotbod: On the new mainpage, I introduced a couple of new ways to help today

[1:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: All the "key questions" that we gathered early on are open for discussion, for instance.

[1:51pm] aude: botnotbod: thanks, that would help a lot

[1:51pm] Juandev joined the chat room.

[1:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: bodnotbod, that will take you about ten minutes - there aren't many

[1:52pm] cary joined the chat room.

[1:52pm] bodnotbod: OK, Philippe, I will keep an eye on the main page too. I have tended to go straight to favorited pages and bypass the main page. I shall stop doing that

[1:54pm] bodnotbod: Everyone here is welcome to holler at me on my talk page if they want me to assist with anything. I'll help where I can.

[1:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: bodnotbod: that's one of the things that I love about this community

[1:54pm] bodnotbod: No problem

[1:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: I was telling the Bridgespan folks yesterday that they didn't have to bring questions to me... and that it was better if they just asked the community.

[1:56pm] bodnotbod: I was reading the Bridgespan interviews today and yesterday. Some of them are rather short and I wished there was a bit more to them. Some were very handy for the "strengthening community" theme though.

[1:56pm] Dedalus_: Philippe|Wiki: there we be a general assembly of Wikimedia Nederland on Saturday - what should I tell people about the strategy process?

[1:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: I had the most fascinating discussion with Ward Cunningham about exactly that this morning.

[1:56pm] Natalie: <Philippe|Wiki> Jay cleared the site design

[1:56pm] Natalie: What does that mean?

[1:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: He saw it, liked it.

[1:56pm] Natalie: The redesign?

[1:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: yep

[1:57pm] Dedalus_: we be -> will be

[1:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: But he and I are meeting in a few minutes to chat about various things and I'm asking specifically once more about the trademarks issue to be sure that Dedalus_'s issue is addressed.

[1:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: I think you should tell that the strategy project proceeds and their input is greatly desired. Task forces are beginning to launch shortly and that we really need help with translating pages and engaging the various communities.

[1:58pm] GerardM-: Philippe|Wiki: did your read what I wrote about the translation of text as we do it .... (it stinks)

[1:59pm] GerardM-: http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2009/10/when-only-tool-you-have-is-hammer.html

[1:59pm] Dedalus_: ... how will it effect ordinary Wikipedia editors, this process. The don't like strategy, they want to edit

[1:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gerard, I must have missed that. Maybe during one of my server bounce episodes?

[2:00pm] GerardM-: FYI Siebrand did a demo project as a follow up

[2:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus: The answer to that is, we simply don't know yet, Dedalus. I can't tell them how it will affect them until we see what the strategy outcomes are.

[2:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: Ugh, I'm sorry, folks, but I just looked at the clock and my next meeting is, like, now. I'm very very happy to continue this chat after that meeting if you'd like (I can log back on) or you can email me or IM me.

[2:01pm] GerardM-: Dedalus I expect that this directs what WMF does, where it puts its effort

[2:01pm] GerardM-: when people just want to edit, they will

[2:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: On gchat, i'm philippebeaudette@gmail.com ; on AIM I'm Philippebeaudett <---- note that there's no final "e" on there.

[2:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gerard, that's a good point.

[2:02pm] bodnotbod: No probs Philippe.

[2:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm going to post this shortly

[2:02pm] aude: i'm often around here

[2:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll be back. Thanks for your understanding!

[2:03pm] You are now known as Philippe|Away.

[2:03pm] Philippe|Away: *** END LOG ***