IRC office hours/2009-12-01

    From Strategic Planning

    [2009-12-01 11::57:40] » aude joined the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 11::57:59] » Schroeder joined the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 11::59:07] Schroeder: hi

    [2009-12-01 11::59:16] eekim: hi everyone

    [2009-12-01 11::59:23] LauraHale: Hello

    [2009-12-01 11::59:25] Schroeder: here's my suggestion for the WMF's long-term strategy: get rid of The Outlaw Jimbo Wales

    [2009-12-01 12::00:15] » _brianmc_ is now known as brianmc.

    [2009-12-01 12::00:30] » Kraps joined the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::00:51] » Maximillion joined the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::00:51] lyzzy: hi eekim

    [2009-12-01 12::00:54] Schroeder: thoughts?

    [2009-12-01 12::01:02] eekim: hi lyzzy

    [2009-12-01 12::02:22] Schroeder: well?

    [2009-12-01 12::02:34] eekim: hi schroeder

    [2009-12-01 12::03:17] Schroeder: he also exercises authority he does not and never has legitimately possessed

    [2009-12-01 12::03:27] werdna: Schroeder: Judging from your comments in #wikipedia, you're trolling. Please don't, it's not welcome.

    [2009-12-01 12::03:43] LauraHale: I propose changing the proposal process for new projects to give it more clarity and make it more in line with long term goals for the WMF.

    [2009-12-01 12::03:50] eekim: hi laura

    [2009-12-01 12::03:54] Schroeder: werdna: I'm not

    [2009-12-01 12::04:07] wizzy: I posted logs at and a summary of the cellphone discussion at

    [2009-12-01 12::04:13] eekim: thanks wizzy!

    [2009-12-01 12::04:21] Schroeder: as you would know if you had been paying attention to my Campaign for Openness and Righteousness on Wikipedia

    [2009-12-01 12::04:25] eekim: laura, let's definitely talk about this

    [2009-12-01 12::04:34] wizzy: /kick Schroeder

    [2009-12-01 12::04:40] brianmc: Ah, it's UncleJimbob. Who's got the steel-toecapped boots?

    [2009-12-01 12::04:48] Schroeder: what?

    [2009-12-01 12::05:10] brianmc: troll (n): See mirror.

    [2009-12-01 12::05:40] LauraHale: eekim: Phoebe I think did a good job of that on mailing list of spelling out the major issues.

    [2009-12-01 12::05:47] Schroeder: a troll is not someone who proposes radical or unpopular ideas

    [2009-12-01 12::06:04] eekim: Schroeder, you have been heard

    [2009-12-01 12::07:53] LauraHale: eekim: As some one who posted a proposal, the distinction isn't obvious to me and even starting the process is confusing.

    [2009-12-01 12::07:55] eekim: there's a task force for this: Expanding Content

    [2009-12-01 12::08:31] LauraHale: Even finding the appropiate person at the foundation to run the idea past and get guidance from inside the foundation for how to go forward is problematic.

    [2009-12-01 12::09:19] Schroeder: eekim: why not? It's a perfectly valid and legitimate suggestion, worthy of consideration

    [2009-12-01 12::09:25] Amgine: So... eekim... Philippe was on the ground an hour ago. <exaggerated looking around>

    [2009-12-01 12::09:36] eekim: Amgine: Philippe is back in the air

    [2009-12-01 12::09:38] Amgine: Schroeder: See term notes at . Then please drop the subject.

    [2009-12-01 12::10:07] wizzy: Amgine: Not sure where to put the UDC proposals - and a statement on the weaknesses of the Category system

    [2009-12-01 12::10:11] eekim: Schroeder: We only have an hour. We have to make choices on what to discuss here.

    [2009-12-01 12::10:18] Amgine: Working on it, wizzy. Will be started by the end of this mtg.

    [2009-12-01 12::10:46] Schroeder: Amgine: any committee has the power to expel one of its members

    [2009-12-01 12::10:52] eekim: so do people know the situation with LauraHale and the FanHistory proposal?

    [2009-12-01 12::11:02] Schroeder: eekim: so why was mine not chosen?

    [2009-12-01 12::11:04] LauraHale: eekim: Would it be worth it for the foundation for me to write up my experience as a more formal case study? Otherwise, I was just going to blog about my issues from that perspective.

    [2009-12-01 12::11:31] eekim: Laura, it would be wonderful if you wrote it up on the strategy wiki

    [2009-12-01 12::11:33] LauraHale: And we knew going in it was a long shot but we had one or two people asking us to continue mostly so there was a clear example.

    [2009-12-01 12::11:37] eekim: You can create a FanHistory page there and outline it

    [2009-12-01 12::11:53] LauraHale: eekim: Is there some sort of template for that sort of thing?

    [2009-12-01 12::12:42] eekim: no template

    [2009-12-01 12::13:32] LauraHale: That was my original plan.

    [2009-12-01 12::13:35] eekim: fantastic

    [2009-12-01 12::13:40] LauraHale: I just work better with structure :)

    [2009-12-01 12::13:46] eekim: i hear you :-)

    [2009-12-01 12::14:20] LauraHale: Us going forward or not was just... The whole process was...

    [2009-12-01 12::15:43] eekim: this is a great opportunity to clearly document this

    [2009-12-01 12::15:45] LauraHale: The mailing list discussion at the onset that was positive was kind of of the vein of "And here is what we would change," irrespective of our own needs. which. Um. No.

    [2009-12-01 12::16:01] eekim: have a page somewhere that talks about issues that existing projects would have to consider

    [2009-12-01 12::16:34] LauraHale: Things that WMF people were all BIG ISSUES I was like: But for Wikia, that was a non-issue. I don't understand the BFD.

    [2009-12-01 12::17:20] » ChrisiPK joined the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::18:10] werdna: Wikimedia isn't currently in a position to acquire new projects

    [2009-12-01 12::18:41] eekim: if that's the case, one important question is, what would it take for Wikimedia to get to that position?

    [2009-12-01 12::18:41] Amgine: Covenant synod of 1851 or 1858? For some wikimedians some elements are more or less valued (or articles of faith.)

    [2009-12-01 12::19:03] LauraHale: If Translate Wiki decided it wanted to be acquired, it probably would and rather smoothly.

    [2009-12-01 12::19:25] werdna: LauraHale: that's quite an edge case

    [2009-12-01 12::19:33] LauraHale: shrugs

    [2009-12-01 12::19:43] Amgine: <raises eyebrow>

    [2009-12-01 12::20:04] werdna: it's clear that the CTO and tech staff are the people to negotiate with there

    [2009-12-01 12::20:43] Amgine: At the moment, that's true. Strategy, however, is in part trying to find out if that's the appropriate case.

    [2009-12-01 12::20:57] eekim: that's right, Amgine

    [2009-12-01 12::21:11] LauraHale: werdna: Except that they don't know who to point people at.

    [2009-12-01 12::21:53] werdna: LauraHale: for translatewiki, that's not really true

    [2009-12-01 12::22:17] eekim: have people been following the Question of the week?

    [2009-12-01 12::22:18] werdna: I imagine the tech staff would directly negotiate with translatewiki, and then move it into the server farm

    [2009-12-01 12::22:21] LauraHale: werdna: But for other projects like mine, it is.

    [2009-12-01 12::22:27] Amgine: Similarly, CTO/tech staff determine where assets are applied, and that has been particularly questioned by sisterprojects.

    [2009-12-01 12::22:29] werdna: yes, right

    [2009-12-01 12::22:32] Amgine: And non-english.

    [2009-12-01 12::23:07] werdna: eekim: I think that question is one of the most important questions we need to be asking ourselves :)

    [2009-12-01 12::23:17] Amgine: eekim: No, I haven't.

    [2009-12-01 12::23:19] LauraHale: My contact with three people at WMF had everyone basically saying the same thing: I don't know who you wuold talk to about acquisitions.

    [2009-12-01 12::26:09] werdna: eekim: The ideas link doesn't appear to be pointing anywhere where I can add an idea

    [2009-12-01 12::26:28] eekim: off of question of the week?

    [2009-12-01 12::27:33] werdna: yes

    [2009-12-01 12::28:00] eekim: link is working fine for me:

    [2009-12-01 12::28:55] werdna: there are two ideas there that seem to have nothing to do with the current question, maybe we should section it off so people know where to post

    [2009-12-01 12::29:06] eekim: please! :-)

    [2009-12-01 12::29:51] werdna: oh i see, it's buried in Please discuss on the talk page,

    [2009-12-01 12::32:50] eekim: awesome, thanks werdna :-)

    [2009-12-01 12::33:23] werdna: so to summarize, I thin kmaking people feel like they are a part of a Wikimedia community is really critical to having them stick around.

    [2009-12-01 12::34:18] eekim: we hear that a lot from people

    [2009-12-01 12::35:15] werdna: so, some concrete suggestions I've made are: Improved accessibility and obviousness for real-time communication (such as IRC)

    [2009-12-01 12::35:28] » hejko joined the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::35:41] eekim: hi hejko

    [2009-12-01 12::35:48] werdna: I've heard that, and I don't buy it all that much.

    [2009-12-01 12::35:55] eekim: werdna, i don't either

    [2009-12-01 12::35:58] werdna: I mean, we don't want to become facebook

    [2009-12-01 12::36:21] eekim: the thing that we need more of is data

    [2009-12-01 12::36:55] werdna: hold on, taking out the garbage, be back in a minute

    [2009-12-01 12::36:59] eekim: sure

    [2009-12-01 12::37:25] aude: hi, are strategy office hours now?

    [2009-12-01 12::37:38] lyzzy: nice guy, I have some garbage, too

    [2009-12-01 12::37:46] eekim: hi aude. yup

    [2009-12-01 12::39:36] aude: i was busy much of last week, but hope to get going with the arabic task force and would also be happy to look at africa-issues

    [2009-12-01 12::39:44] werdna: sorry, I'm back

    [2009-12-01 12::39:52] eekim: thanks, aude

    [2009-12-01 12::40:06] werdna: eekim: yes, we don't want to do it because all the cool kids are doing it. Data is always good

    [2009-12-01 12::40:23] eekim: aude, thanks! i'm going to spend time on that this afternoon as well.

    [2009-12-01 12::40:25] werdna: As a side note, I think that outreach events are an excellent way to highlight the community aspect

    [2009-12-01 12::40:55] eekim: good point. something i hope the Community Health task force is exploring. Lots of organizations are very good about community outreach events, trainings, etc.

    [2009-12-01 12::41:06] aude: in addition to thanksgiving in the us, i think last week was a muslim holiday

    [2009-12-01 12::41:37] werdna: Of course, if we're trying not to keep contributors around, but to attract them in the first place, then usability and newcomer-friendliness are the significant issues

    [2009-12-01 12::42:07] eekim: the tricky thing is understanding how to balance those issues

    [2009-12-01 12::42:10] werdna: Even among tech circles, Wikipedia has a reputation of being difficult to edit, because of a combination of the scary markup, poor interface (graciously being improved by the usability initiative), and scary administrators.

    [2009-12-01 12::42:14] eekim: both reach and participation are important

    [2009-12-01 12::42:15] lyzzy: there are so many aspects of socialising and we shlould take a look at as many as possible

    [2009-12-01 12::43:36] werdna: and community health, to convert participants into regular editors

    [2009-12-01 12::43:36] » mattgyver joined the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::43:57] eekim: hi mattgyver

    [2009-12-01 12::43:57] » mattgyver left the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::45:36] lyzzy: werdna: I have never asked anyone before - did you like the medal you got on our 5-year-event?

    [2009-12-01 12::46:06] eekim: so much of the next stage strategy really boils down to that: make the tool more usable, do things to help build community

    [2009-12-01 12::46:35] werdna: lyzzy: it was great :)

    [2009-12-01 12::46:38] eekim: the devil is in the details and in the framework (determining how to make and evaluate decisions)

    [2009-12-01 12::46:49] werdna: nod

    [2009-12-01 12::47:32] » Maximillion left the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::47:37] werdna: I should note in passing that the way we want to frame our project is a group of passionate people doing something amazing. it should be *encouraged* as a way to meet new people with like interests.

    [2009-12-01 12::47:59] » hejko left the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::48:09] eekim: i totally agree with that

    [2009-12-01 12::48:13] werdna: people do things like join the peace corps to meet like-minded people (even for romantic reasons), and I think it's entirely appropriate to encourage and advertise that.

    [2009-12-01 12::48:25] eekim: i wonder how large of a percentage of the community agrees with that as well

    [2009-12-01 12::49:04] werdna: of course, we don't want people to get the wrong idea, that we are some sort of dating service, but we definitely don't want people who take things too seriously to make editing Wikipedia a bore.

    [2009-12-01 12::49:55] lyzzy: but we shouldn't deny that we *are* a sort of dating service sometimes

    [2009-12-01 12::51:09] » randmontoya_ joined the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::51:37] werdna: hi randmontoya_

    [2009-12-01 12::52:02] lyzzy: their are like interests, communicatiosn issues and there are friends and lovers among us

    [2009-12-01 12::52:24] » FloNight left the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 12::52:56] eekim: absolutely

    [2009-12-01 12::53:31] werdna: nod

    [2009-12-01 12::55:53] lyzzy: we have regular meetings in bigger cities in germany, but it don't seem to work in other countries as well

    [2009-12-01 12::56:08] werdna: We have a weekly London meetup

    [2009-12-01 12::56:09] Amgine: Some of us form groups, attend local GTs. Some of us don't. The wikimedian community is particularly non-homogenous.

    [2009-12-01 12::56:20] eekim: kul and jay just got back from Wikimedia Japan, and they were blown away by the attendance

    [2009-12-01 12::56:31] lyzzy: wow

    [2009-12-01 12::56:55] eekim: i think the potential for face-to-face meetups is very high

    [2009-12-01 12::58:19] werdna: we should always be aware of scaling with these things, of course

    [2009-12-01 12::59:05] eekim: that's right

    [2009-12-01 12::59:08] lyzzy: that's true

    [2009-12-01 12::59:46] eekim: okay, everyone, i need to check out

    [2009-12-01 12::59:51] lyzzy: IRC is not the first thing a new contributor will try to get in contact with others

    [2009-12-01 12::59:51] werdna: nod

    [2009-12-01 12::59:53] eekim: thanks again for another excellent office hours

    [2009-12-01 12::59:57] werdna: just one note before we head out

    [2009-12-01 13::00:01] lyzzy: bye eekim

    [2009-12-01 13::00:06] werdna: I've been saving this so as not to interrupt

    [2009-12-01 13::00:10] eekim: go ahead, werdna

    [2009-12-01 13::00:49] werdna: I'm getting the vague impression that LiquidThreads is getting a lot of miscellaneous complaints around the strategy wiki. Is there anything really pressing and obviously broken / unusable / bad about it that I can work on?

    [2009-12-01 13::01:10] eekim: i think a lot of the big issues have been fixed

    [2009-12-01 13::01:13] werdna: I've read a few comments of people who say they don't like it, but most of them don't go beyond saying they find it confusing

    [2009-12-01 13::01:18] eekim: now it's more of a process issue

    [2009-12-01 13::01:37] aude: about meetups, it's interesting to see the challenges with the dc group for wikimedia, versus what's materialized with the openstreetmap group here

    [2009-12-01 13::01:41] eekim: most people are just using it as a forum and are not taking advantage of the wiki capabilities

    [2009-12-01 13::01:43] Amgine: I don't like it - generically - because what it does is invisible to me.

    [2009-12-01 13::02:06] eekim: i'd like to see people summarize discussions more in the appropriate wiki pages

    [2009-12-01 13::02:15] Amgine: I do like how it works though.

    [2009-12-01 13::02:16] werdna: In an effort to make it less confusing and bigger discussions less insane, I'm working on moving towards a more linear system:

    [2009-12-01 13::02:48] eekim: going linear may help, but i don't think it will solve the big challenges

    [2009-12-01 13::02:49] werdna: aude: oh?

    [2009-12-01 13::02:58] aude: and also differences generally between the osm and wikimedia community

    [2009-12-01 13::03:07] werdna: I should note that OpenStreetMap has a really awesome feature where they show "mappers near you"

    [2009-12-01 13::03:35] aude: for organizing things, we have conference calls and not irc meetings

    [2009-12-01 13::04:10] Amgine: <notes that only 3-4 of the dozen+ regular denters I follow share their geoip>

    [2009-12-01 13::04:16] eekim: Financial Sustainability task force is going to use conference calls

    [2009-12-01 13::04:59] aude: for the dc meetup groups, the osm group just does what we call 'mapping parties' where we do productive things, do data imports, and stuff, and going out to eat and for beer only sometimes

    [2009-12-01 13::05:28] eekim: right, interesting. so one thing Wikimedia meetups could do is wiki sprints

    [2009-12-01 13::05:36] aude: the wikimedia group primarily gets together for eating, and i'm trying to get us to meet at the library of congress for something a little more organized (discussions, perhaps speakers)

    [2009-12-01 13::05:44] eekim: love these ideas, aude. you should post them to the strategy wiki. :-)

    [2009-12-01 13::06:09] aude: very quickly, the osm group is ramping up, working towards a us chapter, having a conference, partnerships, etc.

    [2009-12-01 13::07:09] eekim: you mean in DC in particular?

    [2009-12-01 13::07:21] » randmontoya left the chat room.

    [2009-12-01 13::07:22] » randmontoya_ is now known as randmontoya.

    [2009-12-01 13::07:59] aude: we need a regular meeting place, such as library of congress, where its quiet and we can discuss/organizing things

    [2009-12-01 13::08:37] eekim: thanks, aude

    [2009-12-01 13::08:54] Amgine: Tah

    [2009-12-01 13::09:02] aude: okay, good to chat with ou