[10:03pm] kwadhwa: i just ate a cowboy burger at the Dutch Goose. That was a mistake
[10:03pm] eekim: hey keegan
[10:03pm] Pharos: hm , most novel thing seems to be direct WMF efforts in countries like India
[10:03pm] Pharos: as i read it
[10:04pm] Keegan: I always have opinions. Let me know if they're needed
[10:04pm] eekim: pharos, where are you reading that?
[10:04pm] Jamesofur joined the chat room.
[10:04pm] eekim: keegan, they're always needed and appreciated
[10:04pm] eekim: welcome, jamesofur
[10:04pm] Pharos: "We therefore plan to establish a temporary presence in priority countries (specific countries to be finalized in business planning phase) -- leading to long-term sustainable development of those local communities"
[10:04pm] Jamesofur: thank you eekim
[10:05pm] brianmc left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[10:05pm] Pharos: under 'Recommended priorities for the Foundation'
[10:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: Heh, OK, yeah... I was wondering where you got "india", since I know we dont have any places firmly identified yet
[10:05pm] brianmc joined the chat room.
[10:05pm] Mike_lifeguard: I'm sure staff are aware that the bit about specifically not investing in the smaller projects will be unpopular. Has a more detailed rationale been developed for selling that to the community?
[10:05pm] eekim: although in fairness, india is obviously under consideration
[10:05pm] eekim: very good question, mike_lifeguard
[10:05pm] Mike_lifeguard: Because you *will* need to sell it
[10:05pm] Pharos: India seemed to fit
[10:06pm] eekim: so for starters, "smaller projects" may not be the right term to describe what we're talking about
[10:06pm] eekim: we need to do a better job of defining "small"
[10:06pm] • Jamesofur nods with Mike
[10:06pm] Mike_lifeguard: Especially considering that the entire chapter system is designed to ensure no organization of project-specific chapters is possible.
[10:07pm] Mike_lifeguard: So, while this memo states that chapters may target these non-priorities, that is not actually the case since a chapter for that target area is currently impossible.
[10:07pm] kwadhwa: I find it interesting that WMF will not be investing in certain area for five years. Five years is a long time. Shouldn't they be reevaluated every year. For example, in three year, the infrastructure in parts of Africa could change dramatically
[10:07pm] Keegan: The chapter system is, IMO, stupid.
[10:07pm] Pharos: I think sue has talked about 'chapter-like' organizations in recently
[10:07pm] Mike_lifeguard: I'm not sure "stupid" is fair. "Severely limited and designed to fail" is probably more accurate.
[10:07pm] eekim: okay, so two questions/topics here
[10:08pm] Keegan: Okay, Mike_lifeguard , I'll give you that
[10:08pm] eekim: one is on chapters and specifically, project-oriented chapters
[10:08pm] eekim: two is kul's point about africa
[10:08pm] Keegan: It's a pointless tax write off
[10:08pm] eekim: i'll address the second one first
[10:08pm] eekim: a five year plan is a best guess
[10:08pm] eekim: if it makes sense to reevaluate, we will reevaluate
[10:08pm] kwadhwa: it's not specifically directed @ Africa but...
[10:08pm] eekim: i hear you
[10:08pm] Keegan: eekim: That would have been good five years ago
[10:09pm] eekim: we should make this clear somewhere
[10:09pm] Keegan: At this point, it's... yeah
[10:09pm] eekim: regarding chapters: mike_lifeguard, do you have a specific case in mind when you talk about project-oriented chapters?
[10:09pm] Pharos: I don't think we've had a full discussion of project-specific organizations
[10:10pm] Pharos: the only case really discussed was the 'Catalan chapter', and that is complicated by other issues
[10:10pm] eekim: has there been a partial one? i haven't seen or heard about this before.
[10:10pm] Mike_lifeguard: Sure, there was talk ~1.5 years ago about starting (for lack of a better term) a wikibooks users' group
[10:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: It didn't really take off - even the talk didn't.
[10:10pm] Mike_lifeguard: It would have served the same purpose as our geographically-oriented chapters, but would have been project-specific.
[10:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: I had forgotten about that, thanks for teh reminder.
[10:10pm] eekim: do you have a pointer to the discussion?
[10:11pm] eekim: let's make sure it's linked off of strategy
[10:11pm] Mike_lifeguard: Philippe|Wiki: sorry, what didn't really take off?
[10:11pm] Keegan: Mike_lifeguard: Do you see a future for integrating Special:Books to Wikibooks?
[10:11pm] Mike_lifeguard: eekim: I could get one
[10:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: I didn't feel like the talk really got momentum
[10:11pm] Mike_lifeguard: Keegan: what do you mean by "integrating"?
[10:11pm] eekim: that would be great, thanks
[10:11pm] Keegan: Mike_lifeguard: If I'm collecting, say, a collection of wine related articles
[10:11pm] Mike_lifeguard: Philippe|Wiki: Of course not. We knew it would have no sanction, no support, and no hope.
[10:11pm] Keegan: And I make a Book
[10:11pm] Keegan: Could it host that?
[10:12pm] eekim: Mike_lifeguard: why was that? and what specifically were you hoping for?
[10:12pm] Mike_lifeguard: Keegan: You misunderstand what a textbook is. It is explicitly /not/ a collection of Wikipedia articles (or at least when it is finished it won't be)
[10:12pm] Pharos: if we do a 'Volunteer Council', that could potentially be a venue for developing project-spercific organizations
[10:13pm] Keegan: Mike_lifeguard: It's not that I misunderstand, it's that's books is very unclear in scope
[10:13pm] Keegan: I'm probably getting OT
[10:13pm] Mike_lifeguard: eekim: We would have had no formal ties with the Foundation. The formal ties would have been crucial for being taken seriously.
[10:13pm] eekim: when you say "sanction," what specifically are you looking for? the right to use the logo?
[10:14pm] eekim: mike_lifeguard: was a request articulated and made? what kind of ties were you looking for?
[10:14pm] Ottava: Books has become even more unclear in scope with Wikipedia having a Books: section
[10:14pm] Ottava: And there are now templates directing to that from Wikipedia articles
[10:14pm] Mike_lifeguard: One of the things we wanted to do was outreach to universities. We've had several excellent projects from ODU for example. Expanding those and starting new ones would have been a huge boon for the project, and potentially for the university.
[10:15pm] Pharos: more to the point, were the wikibooks ppl considering a legal organization or an on-wiki group?
[10:15pm] Mike_lifeguard: Pharos: a legal entity
[10:15pm] Pharos: ah, interesting
[10:15pm] Mike_lifeguard: The reasons are basically the same as why the WMUK chapter isn't "just a group of people" and is instead an actual chapter
[10:15pm] Jamesofur: I would assume the hope was to have ties similar to the normal chapter ties
[10:16pm] Mike_lifeguard: Yes, exactly.
[10:16pm] Jamesofur: seperate but connected etc
[10:16pm] Ottava: There was a proposal to have Wikipedias connected to University groups
[10:16pm] Ottava: or recommendation
[10:16pm] Ottava: or whatever you call those things
[10:16pm] Pharos: panlanguage or just english wikibooks?
[10:16pm] Mike_lifeguard: Andrew Whitworth (a Wikibookian) was on the Chapters Committe, and outlined precisely how impossible such an entity would have been, considering how the chapter system was setup.
[10:31pm] Mike_lifeguard: Which is where Wikibooks can fill a major gap.
[10:31pm] Ottava: Keegan - many of the professors I know who worked at the literary encyclopedia loved my articles.
[10:31pm] Keegan: When I was an undergrad, Wikipedia didn't exist. I couldn't use Britannica.
[10:31pm] FloNight: Keegan, writing up something about a cross wiki drive related to BLP is at the top of my to do list.
[10:32pm] Ottava: Wikibooks can't fill a gap until our reputation is established
[10:32pm] Ottava: One of the proposals was to get academics to be active
[10:32pm] Keegan: Ottava: We won't have a reputation
[10:32pm] Keegan: I do like that
[10:32pm] Ottava: But as I pointed out, I knew at least 30 different professors who emailed me with concerns about their bios
[10:32pm] Keegan: Well, tell them to email me
[10:32pm] Ottava: Mostly attacks, unsourced claims, etc.
[10:32pm] Ottava: Keegan - well, since I can't help them I'll forward them to you now
[10:33pm] Keegan: I'd be more than happy to talk to them
[10:33pm] Ottava: But I spent a lot of time fixing those biographies
[10:33pm] Ottava: Or getting others to
[10:33pm] Keegan: Which gets to BLP:
[10:33pm] Keegan: GO!
[10:33pm] Ottava: There was always a lot of hostility on the talk page, normally by people who have no respect for academics.
[10:33pm] Mike_lifeguard: FloNight: You mean ads on sister projects to help solve enwiki's BLP issues?
[10:33pm] Keegan: ps. I love Flo
[10:33pm] • Keegan rhymes
[10:34pm] Keegan: Ottava: I have testimony to my people skills
[10:34pm] Ottava: But as many people stated, Wikipedia has become a system that prioritizes upkeep and pushing around the mop as opposed to creating content. The Wiki dragons are gone. The academics are scared off. The only time people with any background come to an area is mostly to wage a POV campaign.
[10:34pm] Ottava: That has to be addressed first
[10:35pm] FloNight: No, a cross wiki drive to help all projects beef up there BLP content particularly related to athletes.
[10:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: why athletes?
[10:36pm] Jamesofur: ^
[10:36pm] Jamesofur: though the idea does interest me
[10:36pm] Ottava: Atheletes?
[10:36pm] Mike_lifeguard: I don't think we have BLPs. Thank goodness.
[10:36pm] Ottava: Athletes*
[10:36pm] Ottava: Oh god
[10:36pm] Ottava: Shoot me now!
[10:37pm] eekim: keegan, did you have a question about task forces?
[10:37pm] Ottava: Literature and History are the two primary encyclopedic fields. There is a lot missing.
[10:37pm] Ottava: Athletes have tons of websites to go to
[10:37pm] Mike_lifeguard: So, did we figure out how we were going to sell specifically not investing in the smaller projects to the community? Particularly the communities of those projects?
[10:37pm] FloNight: Because Olympic athletes and footballers are common around the world and notable on many wikis. Sharing the information between them would be good because coverage is stronger in the mother country.
[10:38pm] Keegan: eekim: No question
[10:38pm] Keegan: Just thoughts
[10:38pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: I think first we need to decide what "smaller projects" reallly means in this context.
[10:38pm] eekim: let's hear them
[10:38pm] Keegan: I'm Coordinating the BLP one
[10:38pm] Ottava: That is like saying McDonalds is popular with burgers so we should start selling burgers.
[10:38pm] Ottava: We need to offer the people what they need but don't have access to
[10:38pm] Ottava: Academic fields are mostly in expensive texts and info scattered
[10:38pm] Mike_lifeguard: Philippe|Wiki: whatever it means, you're going to have the same problem. I don't think quibbling over precise definitions gets you off the hook.
[10:39pm] Ottava: There is no online website that comes close to that page above
[10:39pm] Ottava: Nothing with the references
[10:39pm] Ottava: the detail
[10:39pm] Ottava: the analysis
[10:39pm] FloNight: The articles exist on many wikis but are stale and incomplete.
[10:39pm] Ottava: Britannica doesn't come close
[10:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: I don't think there's any such thing as getting "off the hook" for this... You seem to think we're obsessed with geting off the hook
[10:39pm] Ottava: Tens of thousands of students will look at that page to help them with their homework or papers
[10:39pm] Mike_lifeguard: In fact, I'm quite sure it does the opposite, because you'll be seen (rightly) as wikilawyering about a serious issue
[10:39pm] eekim: mike_lifeguard, well, for starters, we can clarify things that may not have been clear before
[10:39pm] Keegan: Yes, Ottava, you are brilliant, and it's poetry about a pottery
[10:39pm] Ottava: Keegan - there are other examples by people besides me : P
[10:39pm] Ottava: I just like the poem a lot : P
[10:39pm] Jamesofur: eekim: such as?
[10:39pm] eekim: the Foundation absolutely wants to support projects that make sense
[10:40pm] Mike_lifeguard: Philippe|Wiki: I agree
[10:40pm] eekim: in a way that makes sense
[10:40pm] Ottava: Get the WMF to give me my own literary project and after a year I will have massive academic support : D
[10:40pm] Keegan: Oh, still time
[10:40pm] eekim: if there is an active group of project volunteers who want some affiliation in order to negotiate with educational institutions, i can't see the foundation not helping in that scenario
[10:40pm] Keegan: Question
[10:40pm] Pharos: here's a quick question: did you folks come to that opinion on investing in china in the last week?
[10:41pm] Ottava: Pharos - it mentions Google
[10:41pm] Ottava: So it had to
[10:41pm] Keegan: What do y'all think about biography.wikimedia.org/(language)
[10:41pm] eekim: but, the proposal has to be clearly articulated
[10:41pm] eekim: pharos: no, but last week certainly helped
[10:41pm] Keegan: Transcluding, like commons
[10:41pm] Ottava: I complained about it on the discussion page
[10:41pm] Mike_lifeguard: eekim: *That* needs to be clarified, because it seems to be the exact opposite of what's in Sue's memo
[10:41pm] Ottava: Keegan - I like that
[10:41pm] Mike_lifeguard: poor Sue
[10:41pm] Ottava: I would do the same thing for wikispecies : )
[10:41pm] Jamesofur: I would personally think the past weeks incidents would make us investing in China more important then ever
[10:41pm] Keegan: Like commons, it'd have its own admins
[10:42pm] eekim: mike, it would be great if you posted a little comment on the talk page there
[10:42pm] Keegan: Touchy idea, but I like it
[10:42pm] eekim: that's an important point
[10:42pm] eekim: i actually made the same point in my comments there as well
[10:42pm] Keegan: Vandenberg's, btw
[10:42pm] Ottava: Keegan - but people may create pages and keep them from transcluding, or other messy things because of the split projects
[10:42pm] Mike_lifeguard: eekim: You got it
[10:42pm] eekim: mike_lifeguard: awesome, thanks
[10:42pm] Ottava: So from a technical aspect it would have problems
[10:42pm] Pharos: i think someone called it persondata or something
[10:42pm] Ottava: I would like a project that is just FA level pages transcluded over.
[10:42pm] Keegan: Pharos: Persondata is an extension
[10:42pm] Pharos: (metadata for biographies)
[10:43pm] Keegan: You can enable it on en.wp in gagets
[10:43pm] Keegan: I'm wrong
[10:43pm] Keegan: It's .js
[10:43pm] Ottava: I need sleep
[10:43pm] Ottava: and Conan is on
[10:43pm] Ottava: so
[10:43pm] Ottava: Night!
[10:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: Nite, Ottava Thanks for joining
[10:44pm] Ottava: Sure thing, Philippe
[10:44pm] Ottava: I'll be around as long as you can tolerate me : P
[10:51pm] eekim: i don't know if all of the china recommendations are shot
[10:52pm] eekim: there's an opportunity for wikimedians there to do a lot of that work
[10:52pm] Pharos: I think we shouldn't just follow google
[10:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: Tha's an important point, eekim....
[10:52pm] Pharos: google was censoring
[10:52pm] Pharos: we never censored
[10:52pm] Pharos: so why should we "stop"?
[10:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: If the Foundation elects not to do something, chapters, groups, individuals, can still pick them up
[10:53pm] eekim: pharos, not prioritizing does not necessarily equate to doing nothing
[10:54pm] Jamesofur: I'll be honest, the way the letter is written it seems like it does
[10:54pm] eekim: but, the amount required to get china going from the top-down would be quite high
[10:54pm] Jamesofur: it seems like a "we're going to step back because it isn't worth it"
[10:54pm] Mike_lifeguard: Philippe|Wiki: That depends on the thing being amenable to being picked up by chapters/groups/individuals
[10:54pm] eekim: google invested a ton of money there, and they're still behind baidu
[10:54pm] eekim: (although they're gaining)
[10:54pm] eekim: we don't have a ton of money
[10:55pm] Mike_lifeguard: Jamesofur: yay, you can read between the lines
[10:55pm] kwadhwa: and we're going with current assumptions. I think we need to open to reevaluating China if things change. people think we are writing China off for five years and it shouldn't be perceived that way
[10:55pm] eekim: so there needs to be more creative ways to support work there that doesn't require investing a lot of resources there
[10:55pm] Pharos: i don't think we're that much like google, really
[10:55pm] eekim: what kdwadha said
[10:55pm] Mike_lifeguard: WMF priorities seem to get ... "stuck" -- I'd worry for the mental health of anyone who thought that *non*-priorities would see significant movement
[10:56pm] kwadhwa: Mike_lifeguard: good point. we need to continually to add a process where we reevaluate
[10:56pm] eekim: sorry you think that, mike. hope that the foundation can demonstrate much differently now.
[10:56pm] Mike_lifeguard: wonk
[10:56pm] Mike_lifeguard: eekim: So, when will the CTO be arriving?
[10:56pm] eekim: no idea
[10:57pm] • Mike_lifeguard rests his case
[10:57pm] eekim: ever hire a CTO, mike?
[10:57pm] Mike_lifeguard: I'm not a Foundation with 20 staff members.
[10:57pm] Jamesofur: I also worry that by specifically saying that it isn't a priority we will discourage the great vollunteers we have working there now. We are asking them to do more because we aren't interested
[10:57pm] eekim: that makes it _harder_ to hire a cto. you don't just pull anyone off the street.
[10:58pm] eekim: jamesofur: that's a very fair point
[10:58pm] kwadhwa: Jamesofur: I agree. we need to communicate that better
[10:59pm] eekim: okay folks, we need to start wrapping up
[10:59pm] Jamesofur: I understand your reasoning, but I see China as really an amazingly clear area where we can server out goal of spreading free information
[10:59pm] eekim: jamesofur, so what would you do?
[11:00pm] AlexandrDmitri left the chat room.
[11:00pm] Pharos: what i would do is approach chinese universities about cooperating on non-political content
[11:00pm] Pharos: has that been tried?
[11:01pm] eekim: so now that's a movement roles question
[11:01pm] eekim: in theory, that's what chapters are for
[11:01pm] kwadhwa: there has been some attempts in China to involve universities but they are also somewhat tied to the government as well
[11:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: The problem is also that the very definition of non-political content shifts daily.
[11:01pm] eekim: and it would be great if chinese volunteers started a chapter
[11:01pm] Jamesofur: I didn't say I have a perfect suggestion I'm not totally sure to be honest, I think the best thing would be trying to find as many ways as possible to support them even if there is less to go there monetarily. I assume that that was the main "resources" issue being talked about but it is written as all resources, not just cash
[11:01pm] eekim: i think the foundation would be very supportive of that
[11:02pm] Jamesofur: I don't know enough to know what would happen but I admit I would be worried that a legal chapter there could run into legal issues for the content
[11:02pm] Jamesofur: though perhaps off mainland?
[11:02pm] eekim: it's time and cash. both are scarce, so you have to make choices. the point in proposing non-priorities is to make the hard choices rather than waffle
[11:02pm] eekim: there is a hong kong chapter, and macau is talking about starting one
[11:03pm] eekim: this is a good discussion. i'm going to ping Mountain and Yu-yu and see what they think about Sue's letter, specifically the line about China
[11:03pm] Mike_lifeguard: I think EFF and their partners probably has a stronger mandate for involving itself in China in the ways necessary to effect change.
[11:03pm] Mike_lifeguard: *have
[11:03pm] kwadhwa: Jamesofur: I would actually like to see us more proactive in China. But I've done some work there in the past and it requires a lot of engagement. I'm not saying it's possible but it still comes down to resources. If we had more to work with, we could reevaluate
[11:04pm] Mike_lifeguard: Is recruitment and outreach mentioned as a priority? I forget...
[11:05pm] Jamesofur: in geographicaly imporant areas iirc?
[11:05pm] Mike_lifeguard: Strengthen, grow and increase diversity of the editing community that is the lifeblood of the Wikimedia projects
[11:05pm] Mike_lifeguard: should be #1
[11:05pm] Mike_lifeguard: but yay all the same
[11:06pm] kwadhwa: I gotta run. bye all!
[11:06pm] eekim: on that note, i think this is a good time to wrap up
[11:06pm] eekim: (bye, kwadhwa)
[11:06pm] eekim: thanks for everyone
[11:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: likewise, i've now come to the end of a 16 hour day
[11:06pm] eekim: thanks, everyone
[11:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: but discussions can continue on strategy wiki
[11:06pm] eekim: please keep the discussion going there
[11:06pm] Pharos: good night
[11:07pm] eekim: and please... even if you bring one other person to the wiki to comment, that's helpful
[11:07pm] eekim: night, Pharos
[11:07pm] eekim: bye, everyone!
[11:07pm] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server.