IRC office hours/2010-05-12

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The "I'll do it if..." document that's mentioned below can be found at Process/Activation
[9:00pm] eekim joined the chat room.
[9:00pm] • Keegan stands and claps
[9:00pm] • Keegan keeps clapping
[9:00pm] • Philippe looks around
[9:00pm] Philippe: what happened?
[9:00pm] eekim: uh, hi?
[9:00pm] Philippe: Oh wait! It's EEKIM!
[9:00pm] • eekim laughs
[9:00pm] eekim: right on time too!
[9:00pm] Philippe: channels are spammed and such
[9:01pm] eekim: howdy everyone
[9:01pm] NuclearWarfare joined the chat room.
[9:01pm] Philippe: Nuke!
[9:01pm] Philippe: hey
[9:01pm] Philippe:
[9:01pm] eekim: hi NuclearWarfare
[9:01pm] NuclearWarfare: Hey Phillipe
[9:01pm] bawolff joined the chat room.
[9:01pm] zscout370 joined the chat room.
[9:01pm] NuclearWarfare: Philippe*!
[9:01pm] NuclearWarfare: eek
[9:01pm] Keegan: Y'all give NW some big thanks
[9:01pm] NuclearWarfare: orly why?
[9:01pm] Philippe: Nuke, the BLP policy looks sweet
[9:01pm] Philippe: good job on that
[9:01pm] Keegan: For not being passive/aggressive
[9:02pm] NuclearWarfare: psh, that wasn't me
[9:02pm] Keegan: Ashlee gets that too
[9:02pm] zscout370: Philippe, does it have to be about BLP or can we talk about the recent Commons issue?
[9:02pm] Philippe: Yeah, but you know I dislike complimenting Ashlee
[9:02pm] • Keegan headdesk
[9:02pm] NuclearWarfare: If it's commons, I'll see you guys another time?
[9:02pm] eekim: i'd prefer we talk about movement priorities and strategy, but yes, we can talk about both BLP and the Commons issue
[9:02pm] eekim: let's keep it high-level rather than get sucked into the details
[9:02pm] Philippe: zscout370: We're going to talk about the strategic planning initiative... if you can tie the Commons issue to larger movement roles and such, fine... but we're not here to create another venue for the commons debate
[9:03pm] NuclearWarfare: Keegan, can you send another email to the task force to ask them to look over the page?
[9:03pm] eekim: i think that's been done to death in many other forums
[9:03pm] Keegan: BLP stuff is fine to not talk about right now
[9:03pm] Keegan: I will, I tweaked a touch a few minutes ago
[9:03pm] zscout370: Philippe, understood
[9:03pm] Philippe: great, zscout370
[9:03pm] eekim: thanks, zscout370
[9:03pm] Philippe: In the meantime....
[9:03pm] eekim: two things going on in the strategy world
[9:04pm] Philippe: that Movement priorities page...
[9:04pm] eekim: first, movement priorities: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities
[9:04pm] eekim: would love people's thoughts on that
[9:04pm] Philippe: (which i think eekim is... yep, he's mentioning. i'll shut up now)
[9:04pm] eekim: no prob, Philippe; an echo is great
[9:04pm] eekim: actually, the second is really Philippe's thing: activating the community around proposals
[9:05pm] Philippe: It's huge, actually. We have a TON of proposals, many of which tie to the movement priorities beautifully.
[9:05pm] Philippe: it's time to activate people to work on them, and I'd love some ideas of how to do that.
[9:05pm] mikelifeguard joined the chat room.
[9:06pm] Philippe: How do we get people activated... to get them to say "I want to work on THAT proposal"
[9:06pm] NuclearWarfare left the chat room. (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 :[Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539])
[9:07pm] Philippe: Nuke clearly doesn't want to work on THAT.
[9:07pm] Philippe:
[9:07pm] Keegan: Same sort of wall I found with the LPTF and other offline things that we talked about
[9:07pm] Prodego: Philippe: pay them
[9:07pm] Philippe: Keegan, true... is it different because these were community ideas to start with?
[9:07pm] Keegan: The issue is finding a users that want to work, instead of talk about
[9:07pm] Philippe: Prodego: do you think that's really necessary? To pay people to work? That makes me sad.
[9:07pm] Prodego: no, but it /would/ work
[9:08pm] Philippe: well, i'm an advocate of bribery... but...
[9:08pm] eekim: Keegan, can you expand on that wall? wasn't privy to that conversation
[9:08pm] Keegan: Prodego: In my professional experience, nah
[9:08pm] bawolff: pretend I wanted to work on something, and I didn't know what
[9:08pm] Philippe: bawolff: what if we gave you a list of 700 "whats"
[9:08pm] Prodego: in any case, its a lot more fun to come up with ideas than to force people to do them
[9:08pm] Philippe: oh absolutely
[9:09pm] Prodego: particularly when everyone opposes everything
[9:09pm] zscout370: there were many ideas suggested, but if I could be honest, I am not sure what could work. Many are changing the interface of the sites or asking for offices to be established elsewhere.
[9:09pm] bawolff: <linky?>
[9:09pm] Keegan: Well, nuke just left. But I've talked to probably 30 users privately who were either members of the TF or previous members, and just private emails. NW stepped up to work.
[9:09pm] Philippe: bawolff: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals
[9:09pm] eekim: one reason this works so well when tied with strategy is that we can tie proposals to specific priorities
[9:09pm] Keegan: eekim: It's the pyramid model of productivity
[9:09pm] eekim: that may serve to motivate people more
[9:10pm] eekim: it's an interesting question, though; realistically, what kind of activity can we expect?
[9:10pm] Philippe: zscout370: But is there one that you think ties to what the movement priorities are? And if it's truly interesting to you... how do we (as a movement) say "this is the one I want to work on"
[9:10pm] bawolff: I'd say first step is create a short list of things the average person with some skills is able to accomplish
[9:10pm] Philippe: bawolff: interesting idea, thanks... i love that.
[9:10pm] Prodego: Philippe: you've got so many proposals I could slip a "Proposal:Elect Prodego Dictator" in there and no one would notice
[9:10pm] bawolff: For example, I have no authority to "Allow CSL licensing for Wikibooks"
[9:10pm] Keegan: eekim: Well, we're talking long term, so it'll bell curve
[9:10pm] Philippe: There are days I'd vote for that, Prodego
[9:11pm] Philippe: speaking of which, should we have "vote" or "!voting"?
[9:11pm] eekim: bawolff: want to pick a few from the current list? http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_proposals
[9:11pm] zscout370: I personally like http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Wikischolarships_(individuals_are_granted_online_access_to_paid_scientific_publications)
[9:11pm] Prodego: !vote went from clever to silly, so I vote for vote
[9:11pm] Philippe: zscout370: I love that one, actually.
[9:11pm] mikelifeguard: Prodego: hmm, that's a familiar issue
[9:11pm] Philippe: Prodego: Actually, I meant the concept...
[9:11pm] • mikelifeguard was saying that from day 2
[9:11pm] Prodego: ah, yes well its !vote only if you are doing something wrong
[9:11pm] Prodego: either its a vote or a discussion
[9:11pm] Philippe: Should we actually allow people to vote on the ones that match the priorities?
[9:11pm] mikelifeguard: bawolff: not to worry, it is a silly proposal
[9:12pm] Philippe: Or just let people DO it?
[9:12pm] bawolff:
[9:12pm] bawolff: Thats why we need a short list
[9:12pm] bawolff: I might want to help, but I'm really lazy and don't want to sort
[9:12pm] Philippe: <grin> honesty
[9:12pm] Prodego: Philippe: well you could let them vote first and then only the ones that at least, say... 1 person votes for are kept
[9:12pm] Prodego: because there are way too many at the moment
[9:13pm] eekim: bawolff: we're trying to come up with ways to automatically cull through the list
[9:13pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: you'll find a lot of editors +1-ing their own, but the point remains
[9:13pm] Philippe: eekim: do you wanna talk about that? it was sort of inspired by wikinews' rating system, right?
[9:13pm] Prodego: Some of these are silly, some just aren't going to happen
[9:13pm] bawolff: yeah Wikinews!
[9:13pm] Prodego: but there are some that bring up legitimate points of discussion I assume
[9:14pm] YellowMonkey joined the chat room.
[9:14pm] Prodego: .e.g. "http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Give_Rollbackers_some_blocking_rights"
[9:14pm] robla left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving.)
[9:14pm] Prodego: very enwiki centric, and simply not a strategy issue
[9:14pm] YellowMonkey: crack down on POV
[9:14pm] zscout370: I am also trying to bug ISO agencies when it comes to our flag drawings; while yes that is not a part of the official ideas, but I am trying to improve on our media collection
[9:14pm] Philippe: Hey YellowMonkey
[9:14pm] eekim: Philippe, partly inspired by Wikinews ratiing
[9:14pm] Blurpeace joined the chat room.
[9:14pm] eekim: also have been playing with other ideas: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Activity_bot_for_strategy_proposals,_task_forces
[9:14pm] Philippe: zscout370: Content breadth. Interesting. We've had some discussions about that.
[9:14pm] Prodego: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Administrative_hierarchy brings up a valid problem, but proposes to fix it in a way that won't happen
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[9:15pm] Avicennasis joined the chat room.
[9:15pm] Risker joined the chat room.
[9:15pm] YellowMonkey: Wikipedia =POV heaven
[9:15pm] Philippe: OK, so let's think about those in terms of what the movement priorities are....
[9:15pm] Philippe: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities
[9:16pm] Philippe: Stabalize the infrastructure. Improve Participation. Encourage Innovation.
[9:16pm] Philippe: How do we determine which proposals map to those things?
[9:16pm] zscout370: Philippe, here is an example. Right now, I am in contact with the ISO agency of Vietnam, http://www.iso.org/iso/about/iso_members/iso_member_body.htm?member_id=2199
[9:16pm] apergos joined the chat room.
[9:16pm] Philippe: ...and meanwhile, fix my spelling. "Stabalize"? Geez.
[9:16pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: we love you anyways
[9:16pm] zscout370: to get their techincal documents for making flags. I have done so for Sri Lanka and in the process for the Philippines now.
[9:17pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: high praise, from you.
[9:17pm] Philippe:
[9:17pm] Prodego: I'm not sure I know what that means Philippe
[9:17pm] apergos: how's tricks, Pinky?
[9:17pm] Prodego: its just buzzwords connected together
[9:17pm] Philippe: hey apergos That sounds like Danese.
[9:17pm] apergos:
[9:17pm] Prodego: "Stabalize the infrastructure"
[9:17pm] Philippe: Prodego.... really? To me, that's significant.
[9:17pm] robla joined the chat room.
[9:18pm] Prodego: Well what infrastructure do you want to stablize
[9:18pm] Philippe: Well, the definition on the page (which is a strawman) is: Infrastructure includes everything from the technology required to run the Wikimedia projects to the financial sustainability of the movement.
[9:18pm] Prodego: the technical infrastructure?
[9:18pm] Philippe: Is that a good definition? or a poor one?
[9:18pm] DanielB joined the chat room.
[9:18pm] Philippe: (and Template:Sofixit)
[9:18pm] apergos: I walked in on the middle but is this "beef up the ops team, have multiple data centers, have scalable easy to deploy systems when we need to add servers of any sort"?
[9:19pm] Prodego: "waste less money"
[9:19pm] YellowMonkey: remove corruption
[9:19pm] eekim: apergos, yes
[9:19pm] Philippe: apergos: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities#Stabilize_the_Infrastructure_Underlying_the_Projects is the section we're discussing at the moment, but it's really the whole page.
[9:19pm] Philippe: and yes
[9:19pm] apergos: k
[9:19pm] gopher65: I have a quick question that is driving me up the wall: Why is User:Purodha listed here: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Deleteme
[9:19pm] Philippe: lemme look
[9:19pm] gopher65: I checked all the templates on the userpage, and none of them have a delete on them
[9:19pm] gopher65: I checked the cats, and cat:deleteme isn't there
[9:20pm] Philippe: no bloddy idea, gopher65
[9:20pm] gopher65: It's driving me crazy:P
[9:20pm] Philippe: i'll look into it tonight
[9:20pm] gopher65: k, thanks
[9:20pm] Philippe: BTW... gopher65 ... srsly, fantastic work on the wiki lately
[9:20pm] gopher65:
[9:20pm] Keegan: Can I delete it?
[9:21pm] • Keegan wags
[9:21pm] mikelifeguard: BTW, has anyone from the community encountered Danese? It's been months since I was yelled at for wondering when she'd be done the getting-up-to-speed stage...
[9:21pm] Philippe: Keegan: no.
[9:21pm] Keegan:
[9:21pm] eekim: mikelifeguard, give her time. she'll show.
[9:21pm] bawolff: gopher65: make a null edit to the page, that might refresh all the category links and remove it from the category
[9:21pm] Prodego: gopher65: probably just got lost in the job queue somewhere
[9:22pm] apergos: yes saw her today, they were working on budget
[9:22pm] apergos: ( mikelifeguard )
[9:22pm] apergos: should be better in the coming days.
[9:22pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: I was asking her about that tonight. I'll prod her a touch. But remember, the Foundation is doing business planning for next year right now, so she's buried trying to figure out how to pay for the stuff we're all talking about.
[9:22pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: I don't remember that, I don't come to you staff meetings
[9:22pm] Philippe: (and btw... apergos makes a good point. He's community. Me too)
[9:22pm] gopher65: huh. Ok, that worked
[9:23pm] gopher65: Must have just been a glitch
[9:23pm] Keegan: mikelifeguard: They're on skype
[9:23pm] gopher65: Thanks
[9:23pm] Keegan: You can watch
[9:23pm] Philippe: bawolff, gopher65, cool, thanks.
[9:23pm] • Keegan lies
[9:23pm] Philippe: Keegan: liar.
[9:23pm] Philippe: But back on track...
[9:23pm] Philippe: Proposals. Movement priorities.
[9:23pm] Keegan: Yeah, back to that
[9:23pm] Philippe: How do we realistically tie one to the other? and find a mechanism for community ownership of DOING stuff?
[9:23pm] Keegan: I'm a big fan of five year plans
[9:23pm] Keegan: But things change every five years
[9:24pm] Philippe: Keegan: you're starting to sound like Ashlee
[9:24pm] Keegan: Well, they do
[9:24pm] Prodego: the problem is that by the time you convince anyone to do anything, what you want to do will have changed
[9:24pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: I think the perception exists that the task forces were already /doing/ stuff. Were they just talking about doing stuff?
[9:24pm] Philippe: Is that true? I'm not sure.
[9:24pm] eekim: i think the big opportunity is to show volunteer activity
[9:24pm] Keegan: That's always a problem
[9:24pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: you're entirely right and I stand corrected.
[9:24pm] Keegan: But it doesn't mean it's not workable
[9:25pm] Philippe: I meant to activate a broader swath of people to work on the proposals.
[9:25pm] Keegan: Oh, that
[9:25pm] eekim: we have a suspicion that people are working on stuff. but who, what are they doing, how effective are they?
[9:25pm] eekim: if there were a dashboard for this kind of activity, it might compel more people to volunteer
[9:25pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: I wasn't correcting, I was asking. I haven't been around for basically the time period the task forces were running, so I don't really know what went on.
[9:25pm] Prodego: the only thing that has come out of the money spent on 'stuff' has been vector
[9:25pm] eekim: mikelifeguard, sometimes talking is doing
[9:25pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: but you raised a great point. The task forces *are* doing stuff.
[9:25pm] Prodego: which is admittedly looking quite good, I think
[9:25pm] eekim: specifically, we asked them to think deeply about specific topics, analyze the research, and make recommendations
[9:25pm] Keegan: eekim: ask mikelifeguard why he edits a project like wikibooks
[9:26pm] eekim: and most of them successfully accomplished that
[9:26pm] Prodego: Keegan: ask someone why they edit wikispecies
[9:26pm] Prodego: that I want to know
[9:26pm] Philippe: hey, i think wikispecies is cool.
[9:26pm] zscout370: Keegan, I seen at least one user ask for Wikibooks to be shut down tonight
[9:26pm] Keegan: No one does, it's all bots and import
[9:26pm] mikelifeguard: zscout370: Was it Guido den Broeder?
[9:26pm] • bawolff would personally love to have a coles notes version of what strat is working on, what its done, what it wants to do, and how i can help (without reading 200 pages)
[9:26pm] zscout370: mikelifeguard, no
[9:26pm] mikelifeguard: hmph
[9:26pm] Philippe: bawolff, I can help with that.
[9:26pm] Philippe: holdon, i'll get a link
[9:26pm] eekim: Keegan, Prodego, point?
[9:27pm] Keegan: zscout370: Well, there's a lack of participation. Which can lead to no focus. But mikelifeguard still works hard at it. So what's the compulsion?
[9:27pm] eekim: ah, okay, you're trying to understand motivation
[9:27pm] Keegan: I work with Wikipedia because I'm an encyclopedia geek
[9:27pm] eekim: okay, so we need to be careful here
[9:27pm] Philippe: bawolff: this is a good backgrounder: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Process
[9:27pm] _sj_: well, to quote sth002
[9:27pm] _sj_: "It seems to me that Wikispecies is a very powerful (and free!) infrastructure by which a great deal of information on global biodiversity can be organised in a useful fashion. The key is in citing references for all the information given."
[9:27pm] eekim: let's not make the assumption that most volunteers out there are like the folks here on this channel
[9:27pm] zscout370: Keegan, well, the user thinks it is a project that just does not do much.
[9:27pm] Philippe: hey _sj_
[9:28pm] DanielB left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[9:28pm] _sj_: wikispecies edits are still mostly talented motivated addicts, not bots
[9:28pm] eekim: furthermore, there are volunteer activities for folks other than editing projects
[9:28pm] eekim: hi _sj_
[9:28pm] _sj_: <waves>
[9:28pm] • Keegan was just joking
[9:28pm] Philippe: eekim: I love that. Actually, i LOVE pointing out that editing is just one way to be involved. I'm a TERRIBLE writer.
[9:28pm] Keegan: eekim: Indeed, that's how I spend most of my time
[9:28pm] Philippe: But I was a productive community member, i think
[9:29pm] Keegan: Same boat as Philippe
[9:29pm] Philippe: s/was/am
[9:29pm] eekim: i think one of our big opportunities is activating people who are not already editing but who want to contribute
[9:29pm] eekim: and in fact, that might even help us recruit more editors in the process
[9:29pm] • _sj_ is happy to rant about the merits of wikispecies v. alternatives online
[9:29pm] eekim: i'm much more likely to edit projects now that i've been through this strategy process with y'all
[9:30pm] _sj_: eekim: barrier to entry?
[9:30pm] Keegan: Actually, I got a text from an OTRS phone thing I did about a friend of his who wanted to get more involved and was going to email me. Never heard. I should find that.
[9:30pm] Philippe: interesting, sj!
[9:30pm] _sj_: or general acclimatization?
[9:30pm] Philippe: GREAT question
[9:30pm] eekim: so let's start with the assumption that there are people out there who want to work on stuff but aren't yet
[9:30pm] eekim: and let's figure out how to activate them
[9:30pm] eekim: _sj_, acclimatization plus time allocation
[9:30pm] mikelifeguard: _sj_: I'd be interested in your thoughts about Wikibooks vs other open-content textbook efforts. And the idea (perhaps now a closer reality) of creating textbook-like compilations of Wikipedia articles
[9:30pm] _sj_: philippe: wikispecies and EOL are the most popular species resources in the world.
[9:30pm] _sj_: wikispecies gets more traffic, has more flexible citing, and acknowledes multiple conflicting taxonomies where they exist. EOL has much better imagery, since it covers everything from PD to copyright images.
[9:31pm] eekim: would have had to carve out the time on my own to acclimate, and i just never got around to it
[9:31pm] Philippe: i think that's a huge point, eekim .... what would it have taken to get YOU to commit to a proposal?
[9:31pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: simmilarly, wikibooks has the most flexible multiple-classification and chapter-level classification of any free text roject
[9:31pm] Philippe: _sj_: I'm a huge fan of wikispecies. preaching to the choir
[9:31pm] _sj_: but fails to include 90% of the free textbooks out there with compatible licenses
[9:31pm] _sj_: (for lack of manpower)
[9:31pm] J-A-way joined the chat room.
[9:31pm] eekim: Philippe, fair question, although my caveat still holds -- I don't think I'm necessarily the target either
[9:31pm] eekim: most of the world is cash poor, time rich
[9:31pm] eekim: probably many of the people here are the reverse
[9:31pm] _sj_: and fails to provide beautiful end-products that authors can proudly point to
[9:31pm] eekim: or at least time poor
[9:31pm] mikelifeguard: It'd be nice to have semiautomated ways to import from common formats. There's lots of work we could be aggregating.
[9:32pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: yes! a big fast win.
[9:32pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: Sounds like a proposal to me
[9:32pm] eekim: so there's an opportunity to activate the people who are cash poor, time rich
[9:32pm] mikelifeguard: _sj_: you can order print-on-demand from PediaPress now
[9:32pm] Keegan: Hey, so question
[9:32pm] bawolff: mikelifeguard: like docbook to wiki, or something else?
[9:32pm] Prodego: mikelifeguard: I wonder how many people have
[9:32pm] Prodego: do we know that?
[9:32pm] mikelifeguard: actually, I should write that down
[9:32pm] _sj_: and a tool that lets you properly create and edit a beautiful pdf online, and then a wikistyle that links that prominently from the main page
[9:32pm] Philippe: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals
[9:32pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: joshua gay has done most of this work
[9:32pm] Keegan: Are y'all asking how to maintain the behind the scenes development?
[9:32pm] mikelifeguard: Prodego: we want stats on that, but they're not forthcoming AFAIK
[9:32pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: he just doesn't feel the love @ wikibooks yet
[9:33pm] Keegan: Because that's tricky, but there is a way
[9:33pm] Prodego: mikelifeguard: I can't imagine there being much demand for it
[9:33pm] mikelifeguard: Prodego: for stats?
[9:33pm] Prodego: the PDFs are nice, but I'm not sure I'd pay 10$ for a printed copy
[9:33pm] Prodego: I mean for books
[9:33pm] mikelifeguard: oh
[9:33pm] Philippe: BTW, without endorsing a product... im gonna. I <3 pediapress. I keep intending to get a copy of the proposals all bound for reference.
[9:33pm] eekim: to answer Philippe's question before, I would be more likely to take on a proposal if: a) it aligned with my immediate interests; b) lots of other people were also working on it
[9:33pm] Philippe: I should do that
[9:34pm] eekim: i think b) is a truth in activation
[9:34pm] eekim: people are more likely to follow crowds
[9:34pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: but I want a pdf I can print myself, linked visibly from the main page of every book.
[9:34pm] _sj_: no need to pay and wait for s hipping
[9:34pm] eekim: and so one of our tasks should be to make it easy to see who's working on what on strategy wiki
[9:34pm] eekim: super easy, like, one-click easy
[9:34pm] _sj_: flashstrategymob
[9:34pm] Philippe: eekim: interesting. personally, I tend to work better alone, and want to just bang it out myself and check off the box. Which maybe answers why I'm not a great article writer.
[9:34pm] eekim: sure
[9:35pm] Keegan: Same
[9:35pm] bawolff: My answer to philippe's question: I'd work on a proposal, if i thought it is a good idea (sorry, you have a lot that aren't), and its something that i can do something towards making it happen
[9:35pm] eekim: so then let's turn the question around to you two
[9:35pm] eekim: bawolff, i think that's very fair
[9:35pm] mikelifeguard: Prodego: I might pay to have my own work, but print-on-demand is unlikely to scale to the kind of wide-scale adoption you'd see if some US state wanted that... not that we're anywhere near that stage ATM. We're totally deficient with respect to standards... not that I care particularly about US standards
[9:35pm] Philippe: bawolff: I have a TON of ideas that aren't. But the strategy ones aren't it. Those come from people who aren't me.
[9:35pm] eekim: feasibility is a factor
[9:35pm] mikelifeguard: _sj_: you can get that, the UI just sucks
[9:36pm] eekim: that's part of the reason why i'm more likely to take on a project if others are involved. in some cases, the feasibility depends on some small group of committed folks.
[9:36pm] Philippe: eekim: for me, I need a sense of accountability. I'm more likely to do /stuff/ if there's a way for me to commit.
[9:36pm] eekim: you'd be amazed at what a small group -- even just a few people -- can do
[9:36pm] eekim: Philippe, very good point
[9:36pm] Philippe: /insert Margaret Meade here//
[9:36pm] eekim: so a dashboard should encourage accountability
[9:37pm] eekim: shame is a powerful motivator
[9:37pm] Philippe: grrrrr
[9:37pm] Philippe: Margaret Meade? I'm making crap up now.
[9:37pm] Philippe: That's what we get for 9PM office hours
[9:37pm] Philippe: Margaret Mead
[9:37pm] bawolff: A list of idea categorized by what needs to be done (needs php skills, just needs editing skills, something that needs to be done by foundation, etc) would be a good start to find proposals that i could concievably do
[9:37pm] Keegan: It's after eleven for me and I worked on day.
[9:37pm] Philippe: bawolff: FANTASTIC
[9:37pm] Keegan: *all
[9:37pm] Keegan: See, can't even type
[9:38pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: pffffft, 9pm. It is 1:30am here!
[9:38pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: you're just better than I am
[9:39pm] Keegan: bawolff: Similar to the idea of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Translate structure as well would be cool
[9:39pm] Philippe: So I can write down "bawolff and Keegan to do"?
[9:39pm] Prodego: mikelifeguard: where are you, iceland? south america?
[9:39pm] • Keegan goes to look for a gun and a single bullet
[9:39pm] eekim: bawolff: excellent
[9:39pm] Philippe: that'll learn ya
[9:40pm] • eekim laughs
[9:40pm] mikelifeguard: Prodego: I live on a yacht in the Atlantic
[9:40pm] bawolff: lol
[9:40pm] zscout370 left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)
[9:40pm] mikelifeguard: No, really. >_>
[9:40pm] eekim: back to the small group thing; I'll do it if bawolff and Keegan and others will too
[9:40pm] J-A-way: mike, be careful, a storm is headed that way
[9:40pm] Philippe: hey, J-A-way speaks!
[9:40pm] Prodego: mikelifeguard: well that would do it too, not conducive to the internet links though
[9:40pm] eekim: let's mock it up, and see what we have
[9:40pm] J-A-way: lol Philippe, yes I do, once in a while
[9:40pm] Philippe: eekim: i'm writing that down, too.
[9:41pm] J-A-way is now known as Jyothis.
[9:41pm] Keegan: Wait, what just happened?
[9:42pm] Philippe: So, let's recap a little: we've heard "I'll do it if there are others involved" and "i'll do it if there's a sense of accountability".
[9:42pm] eekim: Keegan, you just got volunteered
[9:42pm] Philippe: I've also heard "Keegan, bawolff, and eekim will do anything if you trick them into it".
[9:42pm] • bawolff has that deep dark sense he just commited himself to something
[9:42pm] eekim: "i'll do it if it's feasible"
[9:42pm] • Jyothis claps for Keegan, way to go buddy!
[9:42pm] bawolff: Philippe: that about covers it
[9:42pm] Philippe: oooh yeah, that's important, eekim ... thanks
[9:42pm] eekim: "i'll do it if it's clear what skills are needed"
[9:42pm] • Keegan cusses
[9:43pm] eekim: careful, Jyothis. i'm about to volunteer you too.
[9:43pm] eekim: and Prodego and J-A-way...
[9:43pm] Philippe: These are really important to identifying motivation. There's also "I'll do it if I'm volunteered" (that's huge, actually... works on me sometimes)
[9:43pm] Jyothis: how about "I willl do if the goals are clearly defined"?
[9:43pm] Philippe: (but it's less sucessful)
[9:43pm] Philippe: Jyothis: fantastic.
[9:43pm] eekim: Jyothis, very very good.
[9:43pm] Keegan: Okay, so what we think we want is cats (not my bag) and a small project organization framework (I can outline)
[9:43pm] Keegan: Right?
[9:43pm] eekim: again, i think tying these opportunities to priorities is huge
[9:43pm] • Keegan 's head spins
[9:43pm] Jyothis: unfortunately, I have no idea what this discussion is about, but I am just playing along?
[9:43pm] eekim: very small framework
[9:44pm] Keegan: I'm not writing the text, but I can do a standard format
[9:44pm] apergos: how about "...if I know how much time I need to commit (and have it available)"?
[9:44pm] Prodego: eekim: well really if you want to convince someone to do something, you have to pay them, make it fun, or convince them that they get power by doing so
[9:44pm] Philippe: Jyothis: you're faking it well them.
[9:44pm] Philippe: then*
[9:44pm] Philippe: apergos: REALLY important, and we haven't mentioned it.
[9:44pm] Jyothis: this is standard management practices
[9:44pm] eekim: Prodego, very good
[9:45pm] Prodego: 2 or 3 tends to be the way wikipedia et al do things
[9:45pm] Prodego: a bit of both probably
[9:45pm] • Jyothis is into management and stategic planning for the past few years
[9:45pm] Philippe: Prodego: yep. If we cam't pay them, and power isn't a dynamic we're fond of, what about making it fun?
[9:45pm] Philippe: Jyothis: so why are you just now turning up?
[9:45pm] Philippe: strategy.wikimedia.org
[9:45pm] Jyothis: mike metioned something, I popped in
[9:45pm] Keegan: And I'm here
[9:45pm] • Philippe tosses gummy bears to mikelifeguard
[9:45pm] eekim: excellent. thanks, mikelifeguard
[9:45pm] Prodego: Philippe: get rid of annoying people, provide ways to work more collaberatively (more social...), etc
[9:46pm] apergos: in fact you also get more takers if the tasks are small bite-sized chunks (would you rather volunteer to write one massive article or do one edit.. oh, maybe another edit... oh, you could squeeze in a third edit, they're small! etc.)
[9:46pm] Prodego: I'm more in group 3, to be honest, so it isn't my forte You'd have to ask the content people.
[9:46pm] eekim: Prodego, how about empower the good people, disempower the annoying? we don't have to actually get rid of them
[9:46pm] Philippe: Prodego: you'll miss me when I'm gone! We had a community health task force that dealt with those things tho.
[9:46pm] Philippe: mostly around social tools.
[9:46pm] apergos: bbut getting rid of them is so much more satisfying
[9:46pm] bawolff: eekim: like via special:blockip
[9:46pm] Keegan: apergos: Well, like this idea of organizational framework of interest
[9:46pm] Prodego: eekim: "encourage" vs "discourage" if you prefer
[9:46pm] eekim: apergos, very good. we ought to have a set of guidelines for _good_ proposals
[9:46pm] Keegan: When I get the time to work on it
[9:47pm] eekim: Prodego, I do, thx
[9:47pm] Philippe: eekim: Nice... "I'll do it if it's well defined, of quality, and meets the mission"
[9:47pm] Keegan: All it takes is someone to start something
[9:47pm] Keegan: People will work afterthat
[9:47pm] Philippe: "I'll do it if someone else starts it and provides a framework"?
[9:47pm] Keegan: Yup
[9:47pm] bawolff: Even a list with the totally unreasonable ones filtered out would be good
[9:47pm] eekim: bawolff: that's one way
[9:48pm] apergos: like monkeys, if we see other people fooling withi something, we figure it must be worth our while to go look....
[9:48pm] eekim: Keegan, yes, and also first follower
[9:48pm] apergos: (heck, rc works that way)
[9:48pm] bawolff: like "allow flash to be uploaded", thats obviously not going to happen
[9:48pm] Philippe: note to self: apergos is a monkey.
[9:48pm] eekim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iREosB1MKxc
[9:48pm] apergos: no, I'm a monkey's uncle.
[9:48pm] Philippe: eekim, is that you?
[9:49pm] eekim: you wish
[9:49pm] Philippe: lol
[9:49pm] eekim: i only embarrass myself in private and among close friends
[9:49pm] Philippe: ....and every other Tuesday night at 9PM?
[9:49pm] eekim: and people on this irc channel
[9:49pm] Philippe:
[9:49pm] eekim: exactly
[9:49pm] • Keegan checks the clock
[9:49pm] Philippe: we'll be here all week! Please remember to tip your waitress.
[9:49pm] eekim: 10 more minutes, Keegan
[9:49pm] Keegan: Yeah, fifty minutes. There's a reason classes last that long
[9:49pm] Jyothis: Philippe, probably you can explain the goal to me some time
[9:49pm] eekim: we got a very good list
[9:50pm] Keegan: I meant attention span
[9:50pm] Philippe: So I have a great list of things here.
[9:50pm] Philippe: lol, eekim
[9:50pm] eekim: Jyothis, of what? this conversation?
[9:50pm] Jyothis: yes. not now, dont breaak it for me
[9:50pm] mikelifeguard: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Tool_to_import_from_other_open-content_textbook_projects
[9:50pm] bawolff: Hmm, some of the proposals on the list only require community concensuss
[9:50pm] eekim:
[9:50pm] Philippe: Jyothis: noted, and I'll do so.
[9:51pm] eekim: okay, let's play a quick game
[9:51pm] bawolff: like http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Flag_Featured_article_diffs is actually a fairly good idea, and would be very easy to implement, just needs someone to get wikipedia to go along with it
[9:51pm] enhydra left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[9:51pm] eekim: do a quick scan of the proposals and list the one that interests you and seems feasible
[9:51pm] eekim: bawolff went first
[9:51pm] Philippe: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals
[9:51pm] apergos: hahahaha
[9:52pm] apergos: sorry, I just saw
[9:52pm] apergos: Delete All Wikimedia Projects
[9:52pm] Philippe: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Call_for_proposals_always_open
[9:52pm] Philippe: is mine
[9:52pm] apergos: that would simplify a lot of things...
[9:52pm] Philippe: wait, did i just volunteer for something?
[9:52pm] Keegan: Is Pornopedia still included? Because given the current environment...
[9:52pm] eekim: Philippe, yes
[9:52pm] bawolff: lol
[9:52pm] Philippe: crap
[9:52pm] • Keegan ha ha
[9:53pm] mikelifeguard: bawolff: Yes, a good idea, but not really so related to strategy.
[9:53pm] eekim: heh, this is a favorite: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Read_the_Proposals_as_Videos_on_youtube
[9:53pm] mikelifeguard: All you need to do is edit a template or something, and have people agree to do it that way
[9:53pm] Philippe: Keegan: pornopedia is outside our immediate environment. Unless you want to volunteer to liase with them
[9:53pm] apergos: I seem to be keeping the servers running (along wiht a number of other people) so I'm booked up
[9:53pm] eekim: he didn't just propose it; he did it
[9:53pm] Philippe: eekim: Agreed, I love that
[9:53pm] eekim: apergos, i volunteer you to be the champion of all small projects
[9:53pm] Keegan: I'm not the one with an account there
[9:54pm] apergos: how much tie is that going to take?
[9:54pm] apergos: *time
[9:54pm] Philippe: you leave me out of this, Keegan
[9:54pm] • apergos applies the decision-making principles immediately
[9:54pm] Philippe: so who else has a proposal they're fond of?
[9:54pm] eekim: not a small project, that's for sure
[9:54pm] eekim: we're all literally implementing this one right now: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Volunteer_Toolkit
[9:55pm] apergos: nice
[9:56pm] eekim: okay folks, five more minutes
[9:56pm] eekim: in all seriousness, i would very much like it if y'all could help us with this
[9:56pm] eekim: Philippe, is there a place on the wiki where we can continue this conversation?
[9:56pm] Philippe: Can I take an action item away? I'll write up all the "I'll do it if" statement.
[9:56pm] Philippe: lol
[9:56pm] mikelifeguard: Another one that got doen: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Foundation-Announce-l
[9:56pm] eekim: sounds great
[9:56pm] eekim: mikelifeguard, absolutely
[9:56pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: Fantastic... there's a tag for that...
[9:57pm] eekim: another thing: tracking things that actually get done will also motivate folks, methinks
[9:57pm] eekim: it feels good to see work happen
[9:57pm] mikelifeguard: for sure
[9:57pm] bawolff: although i'd say foundation-announce-l is more of a press release mailing list
[9:57pm] Jyothis: Did anyone propose a service to generate pdf/images of the article for use in mobile devices yet?
[9:57pm] Jyothis:
[9:57pm] bawolff: than a summary of foundation-l
[9:57pm] Philippe: Ah, it's {{ArchivedDone}
[9:57pm] mikelifeguard: TBH, this is why I keep a bugzilla installation and sysadmin log to track what I do. I'm the only person who look at either one, but it helps motivate me to do stuff.
[9:57pm] eekim: well, there's LSS
[9:57pm] Philippe: Mike, do you want to tag it? or will someone?
[9:57pm] eekim: although i don't think that's been updated in quite some time
[9:57pm] mikelifeguard: I'll do it
[9:58pm] Philippe: thanks, mike
[9:58pm] Philippe: (and i hadn't thought of a bugzilla install... but i use a similar system, and I know eekim does too)
[9:58pm] Philippe: Jyothis: not that i'm aware of. How about writing a proposal?
[9:58pm] Philippe: it can be a one-liner
[9:58pm] Philippe: but more fleshed out = better
[9:59pm] Philippe: (thanks, Mike! I saw it move to that category!)
[9:59pm] eekim: mikelifeguard, that's a good example of how a tool can encourage activity
[9:59pm] eekim: this is why many task management apps cross off items rather than remove them from view
[9:59pm] eekim: feels good to see items crossed off
[9:59pm] eekim: okay, folks, this has been great
[9:59pm] eekim: thank you again for joining us and participating
[9:59pm] eekim: please jump on the wiki when you get the chance
[9:59pm] eekim: both the movement priorities page and philippe's upcoming page will want your help
[9:59pm] eekim: and your eyes
[10:00pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: Well, I am actually tracking bug-ish things
[10:00pm] Jyothis: How about trying to write the software instead of proposal?
[10:00pm] eekim: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities
[10:00pm] Philippe: i'm going to toss up the log, and i'll take away the "i'll do it itf's", which I'll add to a link from the logged page
[10:00pm] mikelifeguard: Jyothis: I have plenty of software for you to write!
[10:00pm] • mikelifeguard drafts another proposal
[10:00pm] eekim: keep drafting!
[10:00pm] eekim: and many thanks everyone
[10:00pm] eekim: have a good night
[10:00pm] Jyothis: thank you mike. you have always been so thoughtful. perhaps write a software to make 48 hours in a day too?
[10:01pm] Philippe: Folks, thanks. I loved this office hors
[10:01pm] Philippe: hours
[10:01pm] Philippe: I'll talk to ya'll later!
[10:01pm] apergos: happy trails
[10:01pm] You left the room.