[9:01pm] Philippe: Nuke, the BLP policy looks sweet
[9:01pm] Philippe: good job on that
[9:01pm] Keegan: For not being passive/aggressive
[9:02pm] NuclearWarfare: psh, that wasn't me
[9:02pm] Keegan: Ashlee gets that too
[9:02pm] zscout370: Philippe, does it have to be about BLP or can we talk about the recent Commons issue?
[9:02pm] Philippe: Yeah, but you know I dislike complimenting Ashlee
[9:02pm] • Keegan headdesk
[9:02pm] NuclearWarfare: If it's commons, I'll see you guys another time?
[9:02pm] eekim: i'd prefer we talk about movement priorities and strategy, but yes, we can talk about both BLP and the Commons issue
[9:02pm] eekim: let's keep it high-level rather than get sucked into the details
[9:02pm] Philippe: zscout370: We're going to talk about the strategic planning initiative... if you can tie the Commons issue to larger movement roles and such, fine... but we're not here to create another venue for the commons debate
[9:03pm] NuclearWarfare: Keegan, can you send another email to the task force to ask them to look over the page?
[9:03pm] eekim: i think that's been done to death in many other forums
[9:03pm] Keegan: BLP stuff is fine to not talk about right now
[9:03pm] Keegan: I will, I tweaked a touch a few minutes ago
[9:03pm] zscout370: Philippe, understood
[9:03pm] Philippe: great, zscout370
[9:03pm] eekim: thanks, zscout370
[9:03pm] Philippe: In the meantime....
[9:03pm] eekim: two things going on in the strategy world
[9:04pm] Philippe: that Movement priorities page...
[9:04pm] eekim: would love people's thoughts on that
[9:04pm] Philippe: (which i think eekim is... yep, he's mentioning. i'll shut up now)
[9:04pm] eekim: no prob, Philippe; an echo is great
[9:04pm] eekim: actually, the second is really Philippe's thing: activating the community around proposals
[9:05pm] Philippe: It's huge, actually. We have a TON of proposals, many of which tie to the movement priorities beautifully.
[9:05pm] Philippe: it's time to activate people to work on them, and I'd love some ideas of how to do that.
[9:05pm] mikelifeguard joined the chat room.
[9:06pm] Philippe: How do we get people activated... to get them to say "I want to work on THAT proposal"
[9:06pm] NuclearWarfare left the chat room. (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 :[Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539])
[9:07pm] Philippe: Nuke clearly doesn't want to work on THAT.
[9:07pm] Keegan: Same sort of wall I found with the LPTF and other offline things that we talked about
[9:07pm] Prodego: Philippe: pay them
[9:07pm] Philippe: Keegan, true... is it different because these were community ideas to start with?
[9:07pm] Keegan: The issue is finding a users that want to work, instead of talk about
[9:07pm] Philippe: Prodego: do you think that's really necessary? To pay people to work? That makes me sad.
[9:07pm] Prodego: no, but it /would/ work
[9:08pm] Philippe: well, i'm an advocate of bribery... but...
[9:08pm] eekim: Keegan, can you expand on that wall? wasn't privy to that conversation
[9:08pm] Keegan: Prodego: In my professional experience, nah
[9:08pm] bawolff: pretend I wanted to work on something, and I didn't know what
[9:08pm] Philippe: bawolff: what if we gave you a list of 700 "whats"
[9:08pm] Prodego: in any case, its a lot more fun to come up with ideas than to force people to do them
[9:08pm] Philippe: oh absolutely
[9:09pm] Prodego: particularly when everyone opposes everything
[9:09pm] zscout370: there were many ideas suggested, but if I could be honest, I am not sure what could work. Many are changing the interface of the sites or asking for offices to be established elsewhere.
[9:09pm] bawolff: <linky?>
[9:09pm] Keegan: Well, nuke just left. But I've talked to probably 30 users privately who were either members of the TF or previous members, and just private emails. NW stepped up to work.
[9:09pm] eekim: one reason this works so well when tied with strategy is that we can tie proposals to specific priorities
[9:09pm] Keegan: eekim: It's the pyramid model of productivity
[9:09pm] eekim: that may serve to motivate people more
[9:10pm] eekim: it's an interesting question, though; realistically, what kind of activity can we expect?
[9:10pm] Philippe: zscout370: But is there one that you think ties to what the movement priorities are? And if it's truly interesting to you... how do we (as a movement) say "this is the one I want to work on"
[9:10pm] bawolff: I'd say first step is create a short list of things the average person with some skills is able to accomplish
[9:10pm] Philippe: bawolff: interesting idea, thanks... i love that.
[9:10pm] Prodego: Philippe: you've got so many proposals I could slip a "Proposal:Elect Prodego Dictator" in there and no one would notice
[9:10pm] bawolff: For example, I have no authority to "Allow CSL licensing for Wikibooks"
[9:10pm] Keegan: eekim: Well, we're talking long term, so it'll bell curve
[9:10pm] Philippe: There are days I'd vote for that, Prodego
[9:11pm] Philippe: speaking of which, should we have "vote" or "!voting"?
[9:16pm] Philippe: ...and meanwhile, fix my spelling. "Stabalize"? Geez.
[9:16pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: we love you anyways
[9:16pm] zscout370: to get their techincal documents for making flags. I have done so for Sri Lanka and in the process for the Philippines now.
[9:17pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: high praise, from you.
[9:17pm] Prodego: I'm not sure I know what that means Philippe
[9:17pm] apergos: how's tricks, Pinky?
[9:17pm] Prodego: its just buzzwords connected together
[9:17pm] Philippe: hey apergos That sounds like Danese.
[9:17pm] Prodego: "Stabalize the infrastructure"
[9:17pm] Philippe: Prodego.... really? To me, that's significant.
[9:17pm] robla joined the chat room.
[9:18pm] Prodego: Well what infrastructure do you want to stablize
[9:18pm] Philippe: Well, the definition on the page (which is a strawman) is: Infrastructure includes everything from the technology required to run the Wikimedia projects to the financial sustainability of the movement.
[9:18pm] Prodego: the technical infrastructure?
[9:18pm] Philippe: Is that a good definition? or a poor one?
[9:19pm] gopher65: I checked all the templates on the userpage, and none of them have a delete on them
[9:19pm] gopher65: I checked the cats, and cat:deleteme isn't there
[9:20pm] Philippe: no bloddy idea, gopher65
[9:20pm] gopher65: It's driving me crazy:P
[9:20pm] Philippe: i'll look into it tonight
[9:20pm] gopher65: k, thanks
[9:20pm] Philippe: BTW... gopher65 ... srsly, fantastic work on the wiki lately
[9:20pm] Keegan: Can I delete it?
[9:21pm] • Keegan wags
[9:21pm] mikelifeguard: BTW, has anyone from the community encountered Danese? It's been months since I was yelled at for wondering when she'd be done the getting-up-to-speed stage...
[9:21pm] Philippe: Keegan: no.
[9:21pm] eekim: mikelifeguard, give her time. she'll show.
[9:21pm] bawolff: gopher65: make a null edit to the page, that might refresh all the category links and remove it from the category
[9:21pm] Prodego: gopher65: probably just got lost in the job queue somewhere
[9:22pm] apergos: yes saw her today, they were working on budget
[9:22pm] apergos: ( mikelifeguard )
[9:22pm] apergos: should be better in the coming days.
[9:22pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: I was asking her about that tonight. I'll prod her a touch. But remember, the Foundation is doing business planning for next year right now, so she's buried trying to figure out how to pay for the stuff we're all talking about.
[9:22pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: I don't remember that, I don't come to you staff meetings
[9:22pm] Philippe: (and btw... apergos makes a good point. He's community. Me too)
[9:27pm] _sj_: "It seems to me that Wikispecies is a very powerful (and free!) infrastructure by which a great deal of information on global biodiversity can be organised in a useful fashion. The key is in citing references for all the information given."
[9:27pm] eekim: let's not make the assumption that most volunteers out there are like the folks here on this channel
[9:27pm] zscout370: Keegan, well, the user thinks it is a project that just does not do much.
[9:27pm] Philippe: hey _sj_
[9:28pm] DanielB left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[9:28pm] _sj_: wikispecies edits are still mostly talented motivated addicts, not bots
[9:28pm] eekim: furthermore, there are volunteer activities for folks other than editing projects
[9:28pm] eekim: hi _sj_
[9:28pm] _sj_: <waves>
[9:28pm] • Keegan was just joking
[9:28pm] Philippe: eekim: I love that. Actually, i LOVE pointing out that editing is just one way to be involved. I'm a TERRIBLE writer.
[9:28pm] Keegan: eekim: Indeed, that's how I spend most of my time
[9:28pm] Philippe: But I was a productive community member, i think
[9:29pm] Keegan: Same boat as Philippe
[9:29pm] Philippe: s/was/am
[9:29pm] eekim: i think one of our big opportunities is activating people who are not already editing but who want to contribute
[9:29pm] eekim: and in fact, that might even help us recruit more editors in the process
[9:29pm] • _sj_ is happy to rant about the merits of wikispecies v. alternatives online
[9:29pm] eekim: i'm much more likely to edit projects now that i've been through this strategy process with y'all
[9:30pm] _sj_: eekim: barrier to entry?
[9:30pm] Keegan: Actually, I got a text from an OTRS phone thing I did about a friend of his who wanted to get more involved and was going to email me. Never heard. I should find that.
[9:30pm] Philippe: interesting, sj!
[9:30pm] _sj_: or general acclimatization?
[9:30pm] Philippe: GREAT question
[9:30pm] eekim: so let's start with the assumption that there are people out there who want to work on stuff but aren't yet
[9:30pm] eekim: and let's figure out how to activate them
[9:30pm] eekim: _sj_, acclimatization plus time allocation
[9:30pm] mikelifeguard: _sj_: I'd be interested in your thoughts about Wikibooks vs other open-content textbook efforts. And the idea (perhaps now a closer reality) of creating textbook-like compilations of Wikipedia articles
[9:30pm] _sj_: philippe: wikispecies and EOL are the most popular species resources in the world.
[9:30pm] _sj_: wikispecies gets more traffic, has more flexible citing, and acknowledes multiple conflicting taxonomies where they exist. EOL has much better imagery, since it covers everything from PD to copyright images.
[9:31pm] eekim: would have had to carve out the time on my own to acclimate, and i just never got around to it
[9:31pm] Philippe: i think that's a huge point, eekim .... what would it have taken to get YOU to commit to a proposal?
[9:31pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: simmilarly, wikibooks has the most flexible multiple-classification and chapter-level classification of any free text roject
[9:31pm] Philippe: _sj_: I'm a huge fan of wikispecies. preaching to the choir
[9:31pm] _sj_: but fails to include 90% of the free textbooks out there with compatible licenses
[9:31pm] _sj_: (for lack of manpower)
[9:31pm] J-A-way joined the chat room.
[9:31pm] eekim: Philippe, fair question, although my caveat still holds -- I don't think I'm necessarily the target either
[9:31pm] eekim: most of the world is cash poor, time rich
[9:31pm] eekim: probably many of the people here are the reverse
[9:31pm] _sj_: and fails to provide beautiful end-products that authors can proudly point to
[9:31pm] eekim: or at least time poor
[9:31pm] mikelifeguard: It'd be nice to have semiautomated ways to import from common formats. There's lots of work we could be aggregating.
[9:32pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: yes! a big fast win.
[9:32pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: Sounds like a proposal to me
[9:32pm] eekim: so there's an opportunity to activate the people who are cash poor, time rich
[9:32pm] mikelifeguard: _sj_: you can order print-on-demand from PediaPress now
[9:32pm] Keegan: Hey, so question
[9:32pm] bawolff: mikelifeguard: like docbook to wiki, or something else?
[9:32pm] Prodego: mikelifeguard: I wonder how many people have
[9:32pm] Prodego: do we know that?
[9:32pm] mikelifeguard: actually, I should write that down
[9:32pm] _sj_: and a tool that lets you properly create and edit a beautiful pdf online, and then a wikistyle that links that prominently from the main page
[9:32pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: joshua gay has done most of this work
[9:32pm] Keegan: Are y'all asking how to maintain the behind the scenes development?
[9:32pm] mikelifeguard: Prodego: we want stats on that, but they're not forthcoming AFAIK
[9:32pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: he just doesn't feel the love @ wikibooks yet
[9:33pm] Keegan: Because that's tricky, but there is a way
[9:33pm] Prodego: mikelifeguard: I can't imagine there being much demand for it
[9:33pm] mikelifeguard: Prodego: for stats?
[9:33pm] Prodego: the PDFs are nice, but I'm not sure I'd pay 10$ for a printed copy
[9:33pm] Prodego: I mean for books
[9:33pm] mikelifeguard: oh
[9:33pm] Philippe: BTW, without endorsing a product... im gonna. I <3 pediapress. I keep intending to get a copy of the proposals all bound for reference.
[9:33pm] eekim: to answer Philippe's question before, I would be more likely to take on a proposal if: a) it aligned with my immediate interests; b) lots of other people were also working on it
[9:33pm] Philippe: I should do that
[9:34pm] eekim: i think b) is a truth in activation
[9:34pm] eekim: people are more likely to follow crowds
[9:34pm] _sj_: mikelifeguard: but I want a pdf I can print myself, linked visibly from the main page of every book.
[9:34pm] _sj_: no need to pay and wait for s hipping
[9:34pm] eekim: and so one of our tasks should be to make it easy to see who's working on what on strategy wiki
[9:34pm] eekim: super easy, like, one-click easy
[9:34pm] _sj_: flashstrategymob
[9:34pm] Philippe: eekim: interesting. personally, I tend to work better alone, and want to just bang it out myself and check off the box. Which maybe answers why I'm not a great article writer.
[9:34pm] eekim: sure
[9:35pm] Keegan: Same
[9:35pm] bawolff: My answer to philippe's question: I'd work on a proposal, if i thought it is a good idea (sorry, you have a lot that aren't), and its something that i can do something towards making it happen
[9:35pm] eekim: so then let's turn the question around to you two
[9:35pm] eekim: bawolff, i think that's very fair
[9:35pm] mikelifeguard: Prodego: I might pay to have my own work, but print-on-demand is unlikely to scale to the kind of wide-scale adoption you'd see if some US state wanted that... not that we're anywhere near that stage ATM. We're totally deficient with respect to standards... not that I care particularly about US standards
[9:35pm] Philippe: bawolff: I have a TON of ideas that aren't. But the strategy ones aren't it. Those come from people who aren't me.
[9:35pm] eekim: feasibility is a factor
[9:35pm] mikelifeguard: _sj_: you can get that, the UI just sucks
[9:36pm] eekim: that's part of the reason why i'm more likely to take on a project if others are involved. in some cases, the feasibility depends on some small group of committed folks.
[9:36pm] Philippe: eekim: for me, I need a sense of accountability. I'm more likely to do /stuff/ if there's a way for me to commit.
[9:36pm] eekim: you'd be amazed at what a small group -- even just a few people -- can do
[9:36pm] eekim: Philippe, very good point
[9:36pm] Philippe: /insert Margaret Meade here//
[9:36pm] eekim: so a dashboard should encourage accountability
[9:37pm] eekim: shame is a powerful motivator
[9:37pm] Philippe: grrrrr
[9:37pm] Philippe: Margaret Meade? I'm making crap up now.
[9:37pm] Philippe: That's what we get for 9PM office hours
[9:37pm] Philippe: Margaret Mead
[9:37pm] bawolff: A list of idea categorized by what needs to be done (needs php skills, just needs editing skills, something that needs to be done by foundation, etc) would be a good start to find proposals that i could concievably do
[9:37pm] Keegan: It's after eleven for me and I worked on day.
[9:37pm] Philippe: bawolff: FANTASTIC
[9:37pm] Keegan: *all
[9:37pm] Keegan: See, can't even type
[9:38pm] mikelifeguard: Philippe: pffffft, 9pm. It is 1:30am here!
[9:38pm] Philippe: mikelifeguard: you're just better than I am
[9:42pm] eekim: "i'll do it if it's clear what skills are needed"
[9:42pm] • Keegan cusses
[9:43pm] eekim: careful, Jyothis. i'm about to volunteer you too.
[9:43pm] eekim: and Prodego and J-A-way...
[9:43pm] Philippe: These are really important to identifying motivation. There's also "I'll do it if I'm volunteered" (that's huge, actually... works on me sometimes)
[9:43pm] Jyothis: how about "I willl do if the goals are clearly defined"?
[9:43pm] Philippe: (but it's less sucessful)
[9:43pm] Philippe: Jyothis: fantastic.
[9:43pm] eekim: Jyothis, very very good.
[9:43pm] Keegan: Okay, so what we think we want is cats (not my bag) and a small project organization framework (I can outline)
[9:43pm] Keegan: Right?
[9:43pm] eekim: again, i think tying these opportunities to priorities is huge
[9:43pm] • Keegan 's head spins
[9:43pm] Jyothis: unfortunately, I have no idea what this discussion is about, but I am just playing along?
[9:43pm] eekim: very small framework
[9:44pm] Keegan: I'm not writing the text, but I can do a standard format
[9:44pm] apergos: how about "...if I know how much time I need to commit (and have it available)"?
[9:44pm] Prodego: eekim: well really if you want to convince someone to do something, you have to pay them, make it fun, or convince them that they get power by doing so
[9:44pm] Philippe: Jyothis: you're faking it well them.
[9:44pm] Philippe: then*
[9:44pm] Philippe: apergos: REALLY important, and we haven't mentioned it.
[9:44pm] Jyothis: this is standard management practices
[9:44pm] eekim: Prodego, very good
[9:45pm] Prodego: 2 or 3 tends to be the way wikipedia et al do things
[9:45pm] Prodego: a bit of both probably
[9:45pm] • Jyothis is into management and stategic planning for the past few years
[9:45pm] Philippe: Prodego: yep. If we cam't pay them, and power isn't a dynamic we're fond of, what about making it fun?
[9:45pm] Philippe: Jyothis: so why are you just now turning up?
[9:45pm] Philippe: strategy.wikimedia.org
[9:45pm] Jyothis: mike metioned something, I popped in
[9:45pm] Keegan: And I'm here
[9:45pm] • Philippe tosses gummy bears to mikelifeguard
[9:45pm] eekim: excellent. thanks, mikelifeguard
[9:45pm] Prodego: Philippe: get rid of annoying people, provide ways to work more collaberatively (more social...), etc
[9:46pm] apergos: in fact you also get more takers if the tasks are small bite-sized chunks (would you rather volunteer to write one massive article or do one edit.. oh, maybe another edit... oh, you could squeeze in a third edit, they're small! etc.)
[9:46pm] Prodego: I'm more in group 3, to be honest, so it isn't my forte You'd have to ask the content people.
[9:46pm] eekim: Prodego, how about empower the good people, disempower the annoying? we don't have to actually get rid of them
[9:46pm] Philippe: Prodego: you'll miss me when I'm gone! We had a community health task force that dealt with those things tho.
[9:46pm] Philippe: mostly around social tools.
[9:46pm] apergos: bbut getting rid of them is so much more satisfying
[9:46pm] bawolff: eekim: like via special:blockip
[9:46pm] Keegan: apergos: Well, like this idea of organizational framework of interest
[9:46pm] Prodego: eekim: "encourage" vs "discourage" if you prefer
[9:46pm] eekim: apergos, very good. we ought to have a set of guidelines for _good_ proposals
[9:46pm] Keegan: When I get the time to work on it
[9:47pm] eekim: Prodego, I do, thx
[9:47pm] Philippe: eekim: Nice... "I'll do it if it's well defined, of quality, and meets the mission"
[9:47pm] Keegan: All it takes is someone to start something
[9:47pm] Keegan: People will work afterthat
[9:47pm] Philippe: "I'll do it if someone else starts it and provides a framework"?
[9:47pm] Keegan: Yup
[9:47pm] bawolff: Even a list with the totally unreasonable ones filtered out would be good
[9:47pm] eekim: bawolff: that's one way
[9:48pm] apergos: like monkeys, if we see other people fooling withi something, we figure it must be worth our while to go look....
[9:48pm] eekim: Keegan, yes, and also first follower
[9:48pm] apergos: (heck, rc works that way)
[9:48pm] bawolff: like "allow flash to be uploaded", thats obviously not going to happen
[9:48pm] Philippe: note to self: apergos is a monkey.